I might use a gas burner inside. Is it safe?

[fartinmartin]

You only wake up dead once !

 

[Newsman]

My water heater, Thermador stove, and two gas burning fireplaces are all propane. At deer camp my indoor lights, stove and refrigerator / freezer are all propane. It isn't the fuel it's the burner. Outdoor grills and outdoor turkey fryer burners are produced cheaper and less efficient than the burners produced for use indoors. Buy a good quality burner designed for indoor use, keep it clean and in good working order and brew all you want inside!

And I'd be willing to bet that all your deer camp appliances have flues that vent to the outside too. As you point out, there's a difference between an indoor appliance and an outdoor appliance. Still, I'd be extremely hesitant to use a propane burner indoors.

 

[johnnv]

A good exhaust fan, over the burner, and a fresh air intake, window or door open a bit. Add a CO detector and you should be safe. Keep the burner a couple of feet away from flammable objects.

 

[bigken462]

If you're lucky, we in the EMS field we call this job security. If you're not, the coroner calls it job security. I'm so new to brewing, I can't offer a ounce of advice, but I would head back to the drawing board on this one. If not for you, for your family.

If Grim comes by for a visit, chances are he's not going to be asking for a beer. At least give someone here on the forum your next of kin phone number.

 

[johnnv]

As an EMT I fully understand your concern. I am sure you have been in a commercial kitchen with a gas range and 10 high btu burners running at once. The thing that keeps them safe is the exhaust fan and the non flammable surface behind the range. I don't have a need to run a burner indoors, my garage works well. But if my only choice was to freeze or make beer indoors, I would consider it.

 

[Bierliebhaber]

If you go with a heatstick all the second guessing would really done. It would be safer for indoor use and you'd save on propane.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Firstly I believe using a burner indoors, or even in a garage is illegal. All fire safety arguments aside, there is the carbon monoxide issues from above. As an example, using my LP burner in my garage this winter with the door half closed, started getting a little dizzy and lightheaded. Opened that door right up and left the garage for a while. Do not mess around with monoxide poisioning. Scary stuff.

If you decide to go this route, and I highly reccomend against using an outdoor burner indoors, think through your ventilation thoroughly and take whatever percautions you have decided on and at least double them. Make sure you have at least two points open (doors, windows) to outside, with noticeable air flow between them and preferably add in fans, etc. Humidity will be an issue. Mold, peeling paint, electronics damage may occur. And for the love of all things beery, if you start to feel funny in any way shut off the heat and get the hell out of there for a while.

All in all it is a really bad idea. Especially if you have a high output regulator. Do not mess around when it comes to the safety of yourself an those that live with/around you.

Also, if you can't tell I feel strongly about this. Be safe.

Yes it is dangerous and illegal for fire safety, but if the CO was getting to you, you need to adjust your equipment. Propane burns clean and a car starting up in the garage will produce a much, much more significant CO spike than a single propane burner w/ decent ventillation (garage with door open).

I would never burn inside the house. OTOH, brewing in my high ceilinged garage, near the center of the (open) bay door, with a fan or decent wind ventillation... well the risk is extremely low.

Ref: http://www.propane101.com/carbonmonoxideandpropane.htm

Both of these are true. If you're in a garage with a high ceiling, the doors open, and a fan, you should be fine. I would never brew inside the house, unless I was using my stove. The propane burners we use a too big, and pose too much risk.

I honestly cannot believe the OP posted this and this posting commanded this many long responses to something that requires a minimal amount of common sense and or a minimal amount of intelligence.

To the OP......... If you have to ask others if this is OK, you should really consider another hobby.

He's posted things similar to this before...

 

[jleiii]

2 threads on this topic currently. I just posted in the other:
indoor-brewing-options

 

[bigken462]

Two hours ago not even an hour from where I live. Doesn't say how, but the threat is real.

http://www.waff.com/story/24045810/1-dead-1-taken-to-the-hospital-from-carbon-monoxide-poisoning

 

[Rhumbline]

I might be missing something but every commercial kitchen I've been in uses multiple massive gas burners running full force for ten hours at a time.

Are we talking about some different kind of gas?

 

[jleiii]

I might be missing something but every commercial kitchen I've been in uses multiple massive gas burners running full force for ten hours at a time.

Are we talking about some different kind of gas?

They have massive ventilation systems above the burner area.

 

[invivoSaccharomyces]

This appears to be a zombie thread, and the topic seems to have been beaten to death, but since you asked:

The burners in your commercial kitchens are designed for indoor use. The flow of propane and the intake of air is designed to be of the right ratio such that the propane is cleanly and fully burned. CO is produced from incomplete burning, which happens when the ratio of air to propane is either too high or too low.

http://www.propane101.com/carbonmonoxideandpropane.htm

 

[duboman]

I too did the same thing see post #27 http://https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/indoor-brewing-options-444073/index3.html

 

[Rhumbline]

They have massive ventilation systems above the burner area.

But they really don't.

The huge hoods you see above the stoves are Ansul systems for fire suppression. Yes, they can also serve to vent the smoke and fumes from the cookers. But they don't vent the carbon monoxide.

Go into your local Chinese take out place, odds are the vents won't be running. I just went to one this afternoon. The vent on the hood wasn't running, it was a small shop, and nobody died.

I ran a restaurant for a bit. Six gas burners plus two grills and two ovens all running full tilt on gas for a 14 hour shift.

Let's be clear here, we're talking about someone using one gas burner for one hour in a typical home with leaky door and window seals.

 

[DrunkleJon]

But they really don't.

The huge hoods you see above the stoves are Ansul systems for fire suppression. Yes, they can also serve to vent the smoke and fumes from the cookers. But they don't vent the carbon monoxide.

Go into your local Chinese take out place, odds are the vents won't be running. I just went to one this afternoon. The vent on the hood wasn't running, it was a small shop, and nobody died.

I ran a restaurant for a bit. Six gas burners plus two grills and two ovens all running full tilt on gas for a 14 hour shift.

Let's be clear here, we're talking about someone using one gas burner for one hour in a typical home with leaky door and window seals.

But is it really worth the gamble? If/When you look at the manual that comes with your outdoor burner, it says straight out to use it outside and not inside.

 

[Bierliebhaber]

But is it really worth the gamble? If/When you look at the manual that comes with your outdoor burner, it says straight out to use it outside and not inside.

Because common sense isn't as common as we'd like to think. If a certain percentage of these chaps can burn down their homes using it outside, I'm sure that increases significantly using it inside. That's more of an operator competence issue, though.

 

[johnnv]

If you look at the brewer TV episodes, There is a guy there with a single tier gas system in the basement with a commercial range hood, he bought for salvage for $100.00. No worries there. As said earlier, common sense first, and ask a professional, I am a retired HVAC/R engineer and see no issue with indoor gas brewing if done correctly. I am guessing the people panicking never had a gas range in their home.

To respond to another question, fossil fuel is all dangerous as far as CO, natural gas or LP, fire wood and fuel oil, makes no difference.

 

[DrunkleJon]

True. But CO is the silent killer. It is much like the story of boiling a frog where little by little you up the temperature of the water it is in and it never notices. CO is much the same way. Household equipment is rated on its output and other is vented (water heaters for example) when it surpasses a specific range. Burners are not rated this way, have exposed flame, and some of them are not the most stable. I still have no problem boiling in my garage with ventilation and nothing flammable anywhere within a radius where it could ignite, but I pay close attention to conditions around me.

All in all it really is not worth the risk of fire/suffocation. Even if you can get away with it for a little while, there is always the possibility that you could have that one oh-S! moment and the worst happen.

Then again this is just my 2 cents and we all know what people consider pennies to be worth nowadays.

 

[johnnv]

1st and foremost, if you have any fossil fuel burning equipment in your home, including central heat, stoves, water heaters, you should have more than one CO detector. Get the ones that plug in an outlet, CO is heavier than air. Specially put them in your bedroom, so you don't wake up dead.

 

[Rhumbline]

Make no mistake, if there was any chance that others might be endangered by my actions I'd be burning it in the back yard.

I don't encourage others to dance up to the edge of the cliff when their family's safety is concerned, but my point is that the threats voiced here might be overstated.

So, if you have family, neighbors, or even pets that might be put in harm's way, reconsider your actions. But go out for Chinese food and keep your eyes open.

 

[petey_c]

Elysium, What ever happened?

 

[jleiii]

You can buy flueless gas fireplaces for indoor use in a number of styles. Clearly open gas flames indoors is acceptable. I will note that some have CO detectors built in, but most do not. The high output type are catalytic burners (@25-30K btu), reducing the CO risk.
Common sense and properly operating equipment is the bottom line.
'nuf said from me.

Happy brewing to all by what ever means you are comfortable with.
John

 

[tagz]

you pass out due to CO poisoning, then the burner just keeps rolling until the liquid evaporates and the bottom of the kettle catches on fire, causing the entire building to burn down, with your passed out body still inside.

But it does solve his problem of brewing out in the cold.

 

[DocnSun]

Open a window leave the door ajar put a fan in the window. If the burner has a good blue flame you should be good! The time frame for a boil is not enough to fill a room with CO if your worried get a detector. Just make sure
Fresh air is entering the room!

 

[Elysium]

Elysium, What ever happened?

Nothing. It works like magic.

We got a "paella" burner which we hook up to the gas cylinder. Paella burners are used here with massive frying-pans to make Spanish rice dishes.

I should update the OG. I dont encourage anyone to do this.....but if you are extremely limited when it comes to space, then this might be the only solution.

 

[ajdelange]

I'd say the discussion of exhaust hoods, makeup air supplies, flues, pressure differentials, the use of CO detectors has pretty much covered the ground so I'll offer personal experience. I used to brew in the kitchen with Superb 15 kBTU burners. Did dozens of batches that way. It's always been my policy not to have a beer until the wort was in the fermenter and pitched and found that I always crave a beer brewed with whichever hops aroma I have been smelling for the previous hour. On one particular brew day I found I didn't want the beer because I didn't feel very well and as time passed I felt lousier and lousier but I did the cleanup and then went to lie down. Later that evening it clicked on me what the problem was. I had carbon monoxide poisoning. A check of the Superbs showed part of a leaf (they were stored outside on my porch) had drifted into the jet assembly restricting air flow and I hadn't noticed the flame color being different (under the pot). I was lucky but my vote is HELL NO!

 

[Dog House Brew]

Comes down to figuring your BTU of all burners. Then size the exhaust fan, then size the intake of makeup air your exhausting. I'm buying a vent that is vertical through the roof and another fan for makeup that takes up an entire window opening. The amount of CFM for exhaust and adequate makeup air is substantial. I see many indoor setups that I feel are unsafe. Carbon Monoxide is nothing to play with and anyone brewing with gas needs to be consulting with professionals. If I had 3 phase available, I would be going all electric and forgetting I ever used gas! Be safe if you choose to go inside.

 

[DocnSun]

A man's gotta know his limitations!
NAt gas and Propane are safe as long as you follow the rules and have proper ventilation. Previous poster stated faulty equipment! Would you drive a car with no brakes!
Know your equipment and know it's hazards!
For every 1000 btu of gas usage you need 10 square inches of ventilation!
30,000 would be 30 sq inches of fresh air entering the work space ie a 15" x 15" opening for fresh air! An induction fan can be utilized to increase 02. Any flame needs oxygen to feed it, when this decreases CO values go up. CO does not linger when mixed. It is not a mold that stays . Once it is diluted it's gone! When brewing be fresh and alert! I know it's a hobby but it's the same as if you were on the job making sure everything is on the up and up! Plumbing heating air Contractor 35 years.

 

[DocnSun]

sorry for the mistake in calculation that would be 300 sq inches or a 20 x 15 opening., or variation of.

 

[ajdelange]

A man's gotta know his limitations!

Exactly!

NAt gas and Propane are safe as long as you follow the rules and have proper ventilation.

Yep

Previous poster stated faulty equipment!

I assume you are referring to #57. The equipment was not faulty. There was a bit of leaf lodged in the venturi.

Would you drive a car with no brakes!

I don't as a matter of course check my brakes each time I step into the car so I might very well drive a car with no brakes though I wouldn't do it any more intentionally that I would operate gas equipment with partially blocked venturi. This is a good analogy in the sense that one is likely to forget to check his brakes (which he really should do) before driving and that he is likely to forget to check his venturis. It is a poor analogy in the sense that the driver of a car whose brakes have leaked their fluid overnight in the garage is likely to be alerted to that by the puddle on the floor or realize the situation the first time he applies the brakes presumably at low speed in his driveway. With CO there are no similar warnings, in fact no hint until one has been poisoned.

Know your equipment and know it's hazards!

Blockage of a venturi is a hazard I am and have always been aware of. Indeed I should have checked the venturis and I should check them everytime I fire up the boiler in my current setup and I should have functioning carbon monoxide detectors in my brewery and I should replace them every 7 years and I should test them and I should have a fume hood and makeup air and the boiler should be more than 18' above the floor of the adjacent garage and the electric outlets should be GFI and I should wear safety shoes and the list goes on. The problem is, as you note in the first line, a man has limitations. He is not, when in his home brewery, in an industrial setting where safety rules are reviewed, monitored and enforced. It is not a question of whether or not he will make a mistake. It is a question of when. Some mistakes have minor consequences (loss of beer) some have major (serious injury, death). Tragedies are caused by the coincidence of improbable events for which one is not prepared and for which the cost is very high. It is improbable that lightening will strike your house at the same time as a major accident on the road between you and the fire house but you protect against that by buying fire insurance. It is improbable that a leaf will drift into your venturi and that you forget to inspect it (usually for spiders rather than leaves) and the CO monitor is failed. Say the probability of each of those events is E-16. The value of my life to me is infinite. E-16*∞ =∞. But I can easily reduce the expected loss from such an event to 0 by keeping the bloody burners outside.

For every 1000 btu of gas usage you need 10 square inches of ventilation!

sorry for the mistake in calculation that would be 300 sq inches or a 20 x 15 opening., or variation of.

I couldn't come up with a better example to illustrate that someone, even someone with years of experience who knows all the rules and procedures, would be a fool to use an burner designed for outdoors in an enclosed space. Obviously, I have to stick the dunce cap on my own head as I have done it but I'll never do it again. I learned by my experience and I hope other will too. That's why I posted it.