I love no sparge brewing...

[Reelale]

Not quite sure what you are getting at with this question. The wort clears up as soon as the starches are converted. There is a little bit of grain that ends up in the kettle but it's a very small amount. Overall there is less hot break with this method, because the proteins coagulate in the MLT during recirculation.

I guess what I was asking is what is the purpose of the PVC tube with the drilled holes in the MLT. Does this "spread" the recyling wort over the grains (grist)? I guess I'm really confusing sparging with this process. I see it as using the mashed wort being used to continuously "sparge" by recirculation. I can't visualize what the inside of the MLT looks like during this process. Is there an actual grain bed that filters the wort, or is it more like a "grist soup" in there

And as somebody else already noted you can start recirculating directly back to the MLT if you want to get "clean" wort only in the kettle.

That would be sparging though wouldn't it? And I thought that there was a potential to extract tannins by oversparging.
Thanks for putting up with these questions.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I guess what I was asking is what is the purpose of the PVC tube with the drilled holes in the MLT. Does this "spread" the recyling wort over the grains (grist)? I guess I'm really confusing sparging with this process. I see it as using the mashed wort being used to continuously "sparge" by recirculation. I can't visualize what the inside of the MLT looks like during this process. Is there an actual grain bed that filters the wort, or is it more like a "grist soup" in there

The point of the sparge arm is to prevent disturbing the grainbed which settles and becomes compact. If you were to peek into the MLT during recirculation you would see crystal clear wort, a massive crust of break material and under that is the compacted grain bed.

That would be sparging though wouldn't it? And I thought that there was a potential to extract tannins by oversparging.

Mechanical recirculation and/or stirring of the mash is used in commercial breweries to speed up conversion and increase yield. This isn't the same as sparging at all. When you sparge you are rinsing the grainbed with water whereas this is just recirculating the wort back through the same grain bed over and over.

In sparging any astringency comes from overextracting and/or from loss of pH buffering as the grain loses its ability to buffer the pH once the wort is removed from the husk. With a no-sparge process the pH remains at the mash pH throughout the process so the wort quality is as good as you can get.

 

[Reelale]

Thanks again for clearing that up. In your setup the reinforced PVC is just hanging free from the cooler lid? Do you like this set-up or would you recommend some sort of manifold built into the top of the lid? I've got everything but the pump now, and I'm building the keggle, MLT, etc. Just wanted to see if you were to build from scratch what you would do.

 

[Saccharomyces]

Ugh, you you are trying to replicate my setup don't use the PVC hose for the return manifold, use something else... silicone hose or CPVC or whatever. I thought some folks had used this hose OK for brewing but it definitely leached a small amount of chlorophenols into my first couple of brews on the system... blech. The hose is now sitting in my trash can.

 

[Reelale]

I had some left-over 1/2" silicon hose that I used. I'm just curling it to point up while resting on the grain bed, no holes, no plug. Is this ok? Doesn't seem to disturb the grain bed except for one corner. I just used the new set-up yesterday. I only got 60% brewhouse efficiency and missed by post-boil volume by 1/2 gallon. I attribute the volume miscue to the keggle having more surface area for evaporation, and a "little bit of extra 2-row". I overshot my 2-row weight by 2 1/4 pounds due to a major malfunction on a cheap kitchen scale (RIP)! But it's all good, a mistake that turned out for the good. Over shot my OG estimate by .005. A Nut Brown Ale is happily fermenting away.

Had no trouble hitting strike temperature thanks to Beersmith. I did have a little trouble maintaining temperature through the recirculation. It was cold and I think my hoses were losing heat. When I tried to compensate with the burner, it was very hard to judge when to cut the heat. Also took quite a while to hit mashout. I'm sure with a few more sessions, I'll get it dialed in.

Just wanted to thank you for your patience and help with my never-ending questions on your set-up. And you were right, I could read a newspaper through the wort. It was crystal clear. Thanks again.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I had some left-over 1/2" silicon hose that I used. I'm just curling it to point up while resting on the grain bed, no holes, no plug.

That works... I'll be picking up a few feet of 3/8" silicone hose today at Austin Homebrew to replace the PVC that literally hosed my wort.

Yea, this setup will def. have temp swings, but I am not that concerned about it, since the no sparge method is for when I want a really fast AG brew in the time it takes to do a PM. If I want to be precise about the mash temp, I can pump the sparge water up into my 5 gallon cooler and fly sparge by gravity, or recirculate with an electric RIMS heater (which I still want to build).

 

[ibbones]

That works... I'll be picking up a few feet of 3/8" silicone hose today at Austin Homebrew to replace the PVC that literally hosed my wort.

Sacc, will that hose turn nasty because of the time it has the hot wort flowing through it or just a heat in general issue? I have the reinforced plastic hose on my mash tun and it's only used to drain the tun so it does not stay hot for very long.

 

[Saccharomyces]

Sacc, will that hose turn nasty because of the time it has the hot wort flowing through it or just a heat in general issue? I have the reinforced plastic hose on my mash tun and it's only used to drain the tun so it does not stay hot for very long.

I think the problem is it is in contact with hot wort for an hour so it leaches enough chlorine into the wort to give it that yummy band-aid flavor. Blech. Lesson learned....

 

[newrbrewer]

I tried this today on EdWorts Haus Pale Ale. I added 1 extra pound of 2 row so I ended up with with 11.5# grain and 9.5 gal H20. Anyway, I liked the process and hit all my numbers (actually I think I got better efficiency by a couple %). The only hiccup was my first stuck sparge about half way through running off which was wierd. I ended up stirring the mash and recirculating for a little bit and then it drained off normal. I'm using 70 qt coleman with hose braid and my own grind with a factory set barley crusher. Any thoughts on why it stuck? Next time I will stir it up before I run off and see if that makes a difference.
This will be my new norm for most beers. Nice job!

 

[Scooby_Brew]

Today I tried out a new setup with my new pump. RIMS, no sparge, no chill.

I have to say I love this system, it's simple yet ingenious!

What I would be warring about is the large amount of water constantly running through the grains. Wouldn't that somehow "dilute" the enzymes in the large amount of water and therefor make it harder for them to convert starches to sugars?

Another thing: I can see it would be possible with this system to overflow the mash tun by running the pump too fast, or drying out the grain bed if you run it too slow. Is there any way you could set it up in sort of "set it and forget it" way? For example, what if you raised the boiling pot a little bit, so the edge of it would be in-line with the water level in your mash tun. Wouldn't that make the mash tun impossible to overflow?

 

[BargainFittings]

Not to speak for Saccharomyces but my experience with this system is you won't have those issues.

You won't dilute anything. This is a no sparge brewing method. If anything you will get good enzyme conversion due to it keeping the enzymes in the liquid flowing to the starches.

As long as you can contain the entire amount of liquid in the mash tun and or the kettle you won't overflow anything.

Balancing the flow is a matter of watching it a few times. I noticed that with a different mash that my flow rate was different. More grain made run off a little slower.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

What is the average efficiency from the no sparge method? Saccharomyces got 67% from this batch, is it more or less what you get from this method?


I tell you I like this system very much, and if it can save me an hour off my brew day- that would be awesome.

 

[Reelale]

I just brewed my first batch last weekend with this system. The only difference is I use an immersion chiller and recirculate the wort to whirlpool ala Mr. Malty.com. I had 60% brewhouse efficiency, but this was my first AG batch and I know I can tweak my grind a bit. I just upped the grain bill and only missed by OG by .005. The only hiccups I had were maintaining temps during recirculation. Shortening the hoses should help this. The only other thing I might try is to mash "traditionally" (i.e. 2 qts/lbs grain) in the MLT before I start recirculation. But this seems to work really well as is, accounting for the reduced efficiency. And if time is money, additional grain is cheap.

 

[BargainFittings]

I have my efficiency set at 75% in my software and I hit my number consistently on medium and small beers. I crush fairly aggressively like I did when I was doing brew in the bag.

 

[jkarp]

What is the average efficiency from the no sparge method? Saccharomyces got 67% from this batch, is it more or less what you get from this method?

Max efficiency, assuming 100% conversion, looks pretty much like this:

 

[JimE]

Can you no chill with better bottles?

A LHBS has 6 gallon Better Bottle that hot wort was poured into; It is now a 3 gallon carboy!

 

[NicotineRush]

20 pages and no one has mentioned how the beer turned out? Anyone?

 

[The Pol]

Assuming you achieve 100% conversion eff. Wouldnt your eff. to the kettle be determined by how much wort the grain absorbs AND your MLT deadspace volume?

The larger your MLT deadspace, the lower your eff. to the kettle.

So what if you had 26 pounds of malt in your MLT?

With a deadspace of .2 gallons

Grain absorption of 3 gallons

Total mash water of 16.25 gallons.

3.2/16.2 equals about .2, or 20%

You are leaving behind then 20% of your wort, thusly 20% of your sugars, thusly you just got 80% to the kettle, right??

The key to improving your eff is multifaceted...

#1 Strive for excellent CONVERSION eff.
#2 Eliminate MLT deadspace
#3 Use as much water as you can! (this will cause the water (wort) lost to grain absorption and deadspace to be a smaller % of your total mash water volume, thusly increasing your eff.)

Which would then mean that you would NOT have to sacrifice eff. when you increase your grain bill, because you could offset the eff. loss to grain absorption by increasing your mash water volume, right? This could then provide you with the consistency that you would see in a typical sparge system.

 

[jkarp]

You referring to my chart Pol? It takes all that into account. The reason efficiency declines is you can't keep adding water ad infinitum as boil-off rate is fixed and most people don't want to do 2-3 hour boils.

Higher gravity beers are going to have higher pre-boil specific gravity and therefore a larger % of sugar "lost" to absorption. The single biggest factor in no-sparge efficiency is that absorption number.

 

[Reelale]

20 pages and no one has mentioned how the beer turned out? Anyone?

I'd like to report that the Nut Brown Ale I brewed with this process is excellent. My first AG brew, and my best brew by far. I've since used my no-sparge set-up to brew an APA and an Oatmeal Stout, both of which are currently in primaries. I'll report on them when they are ready. I'm gonna continue using this system for awhile, it works for me. Higher gravity beers make take some tweaking I think.

 

[NicotineRush]

I'd like to report that the Nut Brown Ale I brewed with this process is excellent. My first AG brew, and my best brew by far. I've since used my no-sparge set-up to brew an APA and an Oatmeal Stout, both of which are currently in primaries. I'll report on them when they are ready. I'm gonna continue using this system for awhile, it works for me. Higher gravity beers make take some tweaking I think.

Thanks! I'm in the process of acquiring the equipment for this setup. It just seems like it will suit my AG needs. Adding a 'RIMS for dummies' type heater should simplify the process even more.
Tom

 

[Reelale]

Thanks! I'm in the process of acquiring the equipment for this setup. It just seems like it will suit my AG needs. Adding a 'RIMS for dummies' type heater should simplify the process even more.
Tom

Yeah, I think I lost some heat via hoses on my first batch. I've since shortened them up and the system now holds heat through the recirculation remarkably well. The rims heater would certainly be a benefit. This system seems to work real well with no-chill, but I chill with an IC/Whirlpool return from the March pump and it suits me fine. Good luck with ur set-up, you'll like it.

 

[NicotineRush]

March Pump is on it's way. What size tubing do the input/outputs take? Like to get it ordered soon. I'll be chilling as well, as it's just to freakin hot here in the summertime.

 

[Reelale]

1/2" ID Silicone Tubing is what I use. I put Quick Disconnects on both input and outlet of my pump, after the valve on the outlet.

 

[The Pol]

You referring to my chart Pol? It takes all that into account. The reason efficiency declines is you can't keep adding water ad infinitum as boil-off rate is fixed and most people don't want to do 2-3 hour boils.

Higher gravity beers are going to have higher pre-boil specific gravity and therefore a larger % of sugar "lost" to absorption. The single biggest factor in no-sparge efficiency is that absorption number.

Nice chart...

All I am saying is that there is room for a brewer to #1 know thier no sparge eff. easily since it is a product of MLT losses and grain absorption. #2 you can choose to use more water, boil longer (60-120 minutes) to compensate for losses in eff. on larger grain bills.

Of course you cannot add more water to infinity, but you probably arent adding to your grain bill to infinity either. Your OG will have a window, so your grain bill will have a window, therefore if you make a boil window, you can get the same eff. across all batches, easy peasy

Not saying people should, or will, but they can.

This interests me... muahhahahahaha

 

[HarkinBanks]

Exactly Pol. Now that I know my constants such as boil off, MLT loss and grain absorption on my CB20, I can calculate my pre-boil gravity, post-boil gravity and efficiency spot on with any recipe. I hit them every time when I brew. Repeatability was my goal and that is exactly what I get with my no-sparge system.

 

[The Pol]

Exactly Pol. Now that I know my constants such as boil off, MLT loss and grain absorption on my CB20, I can calculate my pre-boil gravity, post-boil gravity and efficiency spot on with any recipe. I hit them every time when I brew. Repeatability was my goal and that is exactly what I get with my no-sparge system.

I just made up a calculator based on my target boil off, batch size and losses (MLT and absorption) for brews from 1.040 to 1.081 OG. Really interested in this!

 

[HarkinBanks]

I just made up a calculator based on my target boil off, batch size and losses (MLT and absorption) for brews from 1.040 to 1.081 OG. Really interested in this!

Excel has become my best friend. I have strike water, strike temp, pre-boil gravity and efficiency calculate automatically. All I need to enter is my pre-boil volume and lbs of grain. Wish I had that $20 back for Beersmith, excel is all I ever needed.

 

[bigjoe]

Saccharomyces this may be a stupid question but I have to ask.

Is the only place your taking the temp of your mash in the boil kettle? It looks that way from your pics as best I can tell and it looks like the same for jkarp.

I'm going to have virtually the same setup direct fired but I have a igloo cube for MLT. I have a thermometer setup on my BK with a compression fitting. I guess the BK and MLT temp should be very close if doing a continuous recirc right? I like the thermo on the BK when I chill. I plan on buying a k type with 2 inputs in near future. One for MLT one for BK. Maybe its just over kill?

 

[jkarp]

All I am saying is that there is room for a brewer to #1 know thier no sparge eff. easily since it is a product of MLT losses and grain absorption. #2 you can choose to use more water, boil longer (60-120 minutes) to compensate for losses in eff. on larger grain bills.

Absolutely! Being flexible with boil times, AND the fact that your prior beast got some really impressive boil-off rates means your efficiency window will widen dramatically.

The no-sparge numbers really are simple to crunch once you think about it for a few minutes. You're probably giving us too many clues here though.