I can't Brew All Grain...

[OLDBREW]

first thing I'd do is make a simple young drinkable brew with darker grains, maybe a simple brown beer. Do you use a filter for your water? You should if you haven't been. Use a neutral ale yeast like nottingham 2 pks. Keep everything simple. 154* saac @60minutes some ekg or fuggles for hops. Remember when doing all grain you need to cut back on your hops because you get better utilization compared to extract brewing

That 70 qt cooler size sounds pretty large for a small batch of beer. Sound more of a 10 gallon batch size unless your doing really high gravity beers. How thin is the mashbed in that cooler? A smaller cooler for normal 5 gallon batches keeps a thicker bed and maintains temps better. Make sure the tubing from the mashtun is rated for high temperatures some of the vinyl tubing on the shelves of the big box stores are only rated @110*F. the elastomers can leach into the wort if not rated high enough.

Use 65% efficiency when formulating the recipes onyour first few brews until you get a handle on your mash efficiency. don't worry about trying to get up to mashout temps when sparging. 170-180* water in a 150* mashbed will work.

This one is very important. Make sure the thermometer you are using for mashing is pretty accurate +/-2*

 

[ILOVEBEER]

Hey Bobby,

I thought distilled water was a NO NO since all of the important minerals needed for beer are boiled out???

 

[Mad_Milo]

If you use 100% distilled or RO water, you build it back up using common brewing salts: Gypsum, Chalk, Calcium Chloride, Epsom Salts, non-iodized salt (sea salt), and baking soda. Most brewing software can help with this. There are probably calculators out there as well.

I think the most important thing right now is to get that beer tasted by an experienced brewer or BJCP-oriented taster/judge. Inflict it upon them and you will get as much info as you want. Check out your local brew club if you have one!

 

[ILOVEBEER]

I am interested in home consumption and have used a filter for beer brewing in the past. So far so good....It almost sounds like alot of work to add those ingredients and calculae....it will ruin my buzz

 

[GweedoeBrew]

ok so I am going try another all grain today... I am going to clean everything out really well with morning with PBW.... Then do an All Grain and an Extract today... All Grain first... and see what happens...wish me luck!!

 

[ekjohns]

good luck..

 

[blackwaterbrewer]

don't f--k with the sparge. i think you have hot side aeration pro=blems from gooning with the mash. you need to rethink your msh/sparging technique. sometimes, you just need to simplify everything and start over with new ezuipment and mindset. PLEASE don't give up. you must prevail.....

 

[GweedoeBrew]

Well I brewed Saturday... First in the morning I cleaned everything really well... PBWed everything.... and rinsed it out... I cleaned it a lot... and then cleaned everything some more...

So I brewed my Normal Denny Conn batch sparge method... nothing really suprising except that I can out with too much wort and ended with 5.5 gals of wort... I adjusted in Beer Smith and showed an efficiency of 65%

The yeast kicked in within the first 24 hours. So we will see... I will give it a few (4 at least) weeks... and rack it to the secondary... and then go from there. I just hope that I don't have any issues...

BLACKWATER - what is hot side Aeration... and what could the problem be... what is causing it?? What happens when you have hot side aeration??

 

[FxdGrMind]

Hmmm "hot side airation"... yes please, I'd like the same question answered.


Good thread, sorry, but I'm learning a lot from your issues. Much appreciated your post and descriptions.

I haven't gone AG yet... well not fully anyway, my W/E Brew was a 6 +hr ordeal with 1/2 AG and 1/2 Extract... seems I did all the work twice... LONG day. But I think my process is similar to yours but I don't have the Hoses... I just pour or siphon from one to the other container.

I'll be looking forward to your results and mine, to compare notes before I go further into AG.

Cheers and fingers crossed for ya!:rockin:

 

[GweedoeBrew]

Well... Here is the news... I brewed 18 days ago. Today I popped off the stopper to take a "wiff" of the brew... and it is not positive.... Has been fermenting like mad... tons of krausen (sp) coming out of the blow off like mad....But.... Still have that "cidery" smell. I just don't think that it is sanitation issues... I guess that somewhere I am doing something wrong... in the mashing process...I just don't know what... and have no clue what could be wrong...

The Extract that I brewed after the all grain that same day... is fine... smells right... So I don't know...

So... anyway... I don't know... I should look around the Boston area here and find a homebrew club... and make some friends... and figure out how to brew all grain.. until then... I am going to go back to extract... It is depressing that I have done 5 All Grains and they are all throw aways...

 

[Beavdowg]

Well I brewed Saturday... First in the morning I cleaned everything really well... PBWed everything.... and rinsed it out... I cleaned it a lot... and then cleaned everything some more...

So I brewed my Normal Denny Conn batch sparge method... nothing really suprising except that I can out with too much wort and ended with 5.5 gals of wort... I adjusted in Beer Smith and showed an efficiency of 65%

The yeast kicked in within the first 24 hours. So we will see... I will give it a few (4 at least) weeks... and rack it to the secondary... and then go from there. I just hope that I don't have any issues...

BLACKWATER - what is hot side Aeration... and what could the problem be... what is causing it?? What happens when you have hot side aeration??

You mentioned that you cleaned everything with PBW and cleaned again and again. That's great but you didn't mention that you SANITIZED anything. There's a huge difference between cleaning your equipment and sanitizing it. PBW and Oxyclean clean very well but they are NOT a sanitizing agent. You need to be using Starsan, or Iodophore, or bleach to sanitize any equipment that is coming into contact with your wort after the boil, this includes any hoses, carboys, airlocks, etc. If you're not sanitizing your equipment this could be the source of your problems.

If you already know this or are already doing this and just didn't mention it than I take it all back. I just saw an obvious possible culprit for your problem.

Good luck!

 

[ekjohns]

what kind of thermomerter are you using could it possibly be way off giving you some messed up temps?

also i remmeber you saying but to double check your using tap water not distilled water correct?

I have been having the same problem with my brews but most of them I have fig out like bottling to soon, making my own recipie (i suck at it as of now) and adding stuff i didnt like and squeezing my grain bag possibly releasing tannins.

Could you maybe be getting alot of grain transfer to the boil kettle? does the all grain have a bigger turb that the extract

I dont know the answers to most of these but maybe bringing up some ideas could give someone more experienced that AH HA! moment I feel for you though man all grain is SOOO much cheaper

 

[craven_morhead]

I've heard that cidery flavors can sometimes be traced to rampant ellipsis use.

What equipment is different between your AG and extract process?

 

[electric_beer]

This really doesn't sound like sanitation problems , imho. It sounds like tannin or water issues. I'm temped to think that Ekjons right, what type thermometer do you have? Have you checked its calibration? If its just off by just 5 degrees it could wreck your brew.

Also, check out this video, I know it really helped me out when I made the jump (I'm still relatively new to AG myself)

 

[Catt22]

Just thought of something else to check. Did all of these beer batches use malt from the same source? IOW, could the malt itself have spoiled, become moldy or gone rancid maybe? The Sherlock Holmes in me says to look for variables common to all of the batches. I think you've done what you could on the equipment side. Maybe it's time to look closer at the ingredients. Obviously, the hops should also be scrutinized for mold or any kind of spoilage. I'm just guessing, but there has to be a cause and also a solution.

 

[GweedoeBrew]

...yes... sanitize everything post boil...

I am using tap water to brew... and I am not doing anything to it...I don't check the PH or anything.. could that be the issue? I use the same water for extract and have no issues... but I know the PH is really more of an issue with the Mash. I am temped to try some of that PH stabilizer if (when) i brew All Grain again.

...I will check my thermometer... I have a digital one that I got from Target, but I never have really checked to see if it is right... I will try that too...

...I am just baffled at what I am doing wrong...

...stop making fun of my... I type like I think... with big long pauses to...form my thoughts...

I use a 70qt Coleman Cooler. I will say that one of my concerns is that it is too big of a cooler for my 5 gallon batch sizes and maybe I should get a smaller cooler, but I only figured that would help with my efficiency, but not really have any effect on this issue.

I will say that this has to have something to do with my Mashing Process... so i need to figure out what it is that is causing this, I want to brew All Grain... I am just tired of having undrinkable beers everything I brew All Grain...

 

[Mad_Milo]

You say you use the "Denny Conn batch sparge method."

Are you vorlaufing (recirculating) the wort enough prior to releasing to the kettle? Some worts won't be clear, but there should be no husk particles at all. Zero. Nada.

Take us through your vorlaufing procedure - how many cups do you run before you deem it clear? How far do you crack the valve? etc.

 

[ekjohns]

is the thermo one with a probe on a long wire if so i heard horror stories about how they work fantastic for awhile then all of a sudden without any warning are just way off like 10 to 50 deg.

 

[ReeseAllen]

The word "infection" should not even be tossed around in this discussion. If you had an infection your beer would smell like death and would taste HORRIBLE. A "cidery" or "off" flavor is not what you'd get from an infection.

 

[Denny]

If you're judging a beer that hasn't finished, you may be misjudging....

 

[Synovia]

The word "infection" should not even be tossed around in this discussion. If you had an infection your beer would smell like death and would taste HORRIBLE. A "cidery" or "off" flavor is not what you'd get from an infection.

Not necessarily. Sometimes all you notice is a little sourness.

It takes a while for lacto infected beer, especially if its infected after fermentation to get real bad.

 

[Cheaton]

This guy has said twice he's using tap water, done no modification or testing to it, and asked if that could be a problem. Noone has answered... yes the tap water could be a problem. I don't know what problem it would cause, but there could definitely be a problem there. I also notice you're tryign all of these different beer styles. I would suggest you do somethign really simple like a SMaSH in small batches until you figure out your problem.

 

[GweedoeBrew]

If you're judging a beer that hasn't finished, you may be misjudging....

I wish... How long do you think that I should be fermenting? Are the Fermentation times longer with All Grain than extract? I guess the strange thing to me is that all of my All Grain Batch Sparges brews have had the exact same issues and smell... I would think it was something non-mash related if it was only one of them... But I have done a ESB, APA, Hefe, Oct-fest, & Belgian White and they all have the same issue... That is what I can't figure out... It is something to do with my Mashing process or equipment... Could my 70qt be too big for 5 gallon batches??? Is my thermometer readying 150 when it is really 175 (I don't think so)??? I just can't figure it out...

You know what the funny thing is... that it is probably something really simple and stupid.... I am actually considering buying a new Mash Tun setup... and trying my same process in new equipment... something (maybe my ego) is telling me that it is equipment based and not procedure based...

(can you tell this is eating away at me??)

 

[Randar]

I wish... How long do you think that I should be fermenting? Are the Fermentation times longer with All Grain than extract? I guess the strange thing to me is that all of my All Grain Batch Sparges brews have had the exact same issues and smell... I would think it was something non-mash related if it was only one of them... But I have done a ESB, APA, Hefe, Oct-fest, & Belgian White and they all have the same issue... That is what I can't figure out... It is something to do with my Mashing process or equipment... Could my 70qt be too big for 5 gallon batches??? Is my thermometer readying 150 when it is really 175 (I don't think so)??? I just can't figure it out...

You know what the funny thing is... that it is probably something really simple and stupid.... I am actually considering buying a new Mash Tun setup... and trying my same process in new equipment... something (maybe my ego) is telling me that it is equipment based and not procedure based...

(can you tell this is eating away at me??)

1) Have your water tested (you can send it in for 15-20 bucks I think and get a basic profile)
2) SANITIZE (at least you some star san, man! PBW don't sanitize)
3) Test your damn thermometer.

There are many good suggestions in this thread and you don't seem to be heeding any of them

 

[ekjohns]

i dont think size of the mash tun would have any effect at all why would it matter it isnt like there is any affect of surface area or anything its just soaking some grain and draining the liquid. make sure the temp is correct after the water is added to the grain and as it sits also ive seen people when they sparge just "say" throw some hot water in but if it is too hot you are gonna get tannis and off flavors

 

[JuanMoore]

I'm fairly new to this, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but here are my two cents anyways.

As others have mentioned, you need to calibrate your thermometer at both freezing and boiling temperatures, as just a few degrees difference can have a huge effect on the mash.

Also as mentioned, if your water chemistry is off it could cause all sorts of problems with the mash, the most common being tannin extraction which would lead to an astringent taste. A little astringency coupled with a little excess acetaldehyde would taste and smell very cidery. I highly reccomend looking at a water report ASAP.

Hot side aeration happens anytime the wort gets oxygenated or aerated when it is above 80 degrrees. This coul be caused by splashing while doughing in, or pouring / splashing during transfer. It can lead to long term flavor stabilty problems and can result in sherry like or cardboard flavors. While sherry isn't exactly the flavor you describe, it could be something to consider.

The only thought I had that hasn't been mentioned already is proper oxygenation after cooling. If you haven't been doing full boils with your extract batches, you might be boiling out all of the oxygen, and not aerating enough on the AG batches. Under aerated wort can cause some yeasts to stop working before thay have a chance to convert all of the acetalehydes, which can have a cidery taste. Are your extract batches full boil, and how are you aerating?

 

[ekjohns]

one way i found gets pretty good aeration is to run the wort through a fine mesh screen which basically breaks the wort up into very small droplets and allows for alot of oxygen to be pulled with it

 

[GweedoeBrew]

1) Have your water tested (you can send it in for 15-20 bucks I think and get a basic profile)
2) SANITIZE (at least you some star san, man! PBW don't sanitize)
3) Test your damn thermometer.

There are many good suggestions in this thread and you don't seem to be heeding any of them

OK so water may be the issue... I guess that my extract batches don't matter what my water is like as much as All Grain?

2... Do you sanitize your Mash Tun and Boil Kettle... That is where my issue is... I obviously Sanitize everything post boil...




...Well I think that I am going to take a break from All Grain for the winter... and just try again in the spring.... and just churn out beer that makes me feel good...

 

[Mad_Milo]

Before you let this issue an thread die, please follow the few suggestions and tests we are all requesting - namely testing your thermometer.

 

[hjherbenson]

Just finished reading thru this, ONE thing has not been addressed...You're just beginning with AG do you do a conversion check before sparging? I had this problem when I went AG some of my worts did not fully convert and whala bad beer.