I am getting horrible efficiency and really feel like giving up. HELP!

[motobrewer]

My grain bill tonight was 9.5lb american 2-row and .75lb 60L for a Vienna. Boil gravity was 1.026 at 130F and OG is 1.036. Awful. I get my grain crushed at my LHBS, Homebrew Headquarters in Richardson. 1 pass. My next thought is grain crush, but I really don't want to waste more time and money chasing this problem.

If your pre-boil gravity was 1.026 at 130F (1.038 adjusted) for 6 gallons, your fermentor (5 gallon) gravity should have been 1.045, around 65% efficiency.

so, did you add water to the boil / fermentor?

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

hahaha That's greatness! I guess I left out stir, huh!

 

[Pivovar_Koucky]

Adding RO water to spring water could result in water without enough minerals. Poland Spring, for example has very low levels of calcium, thinning that out with RO, which is almost completely devoid of minerals could result in water without enough minerals to mash in. Mix your RO with tap water, or use all spring water, or mix spring water with tap, depending on how hard your water is.

Also, I think that for ten pounds of grain you should be mashing in around 3-3.5 gallons of water, depending on how stiff you like your mash. Then you should be sparging with about 4-4.5 gallons (I use 180-185 deg. F). This will get you about 6-6.5 in the kettle, which should boil down to 5-5.5 over the course of an hour.

Maybe other people have had luck with usAdding RO water to spring water could result in water without enough minerals. Poland Spring, for example has very low levels of calcium, thinning that out with RO, which is almost completely devoid of minerals could result in water without enough minerals to mash in. Mix your RO with tap water, or use all spring water, or mix spring water with tap, depending on how hard your water is.

Also, I think that for ten pounds of grain you should be mashing in around 3-3.5 gallons of water, depending on how stiff you like your mash. Then you should be sparging with about 4-4.5 gallons (I use 180-185 deg. F). This will get you about 6-6.5 in the kettle, which should boil down to 5-5.5 over the course of an hour.

Maybe other people have had luck with using only 2 gallons to sparge with, but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[jfowler1]

I am by no means an efficiency junkie, but since I started brewing, it seems like I can't go under 80% even when I try. I fly sparge quickly (less than 30 minutes) with what I'd call a "braided manifold." I agree with Bobby and think you really need to take a closer look at the crush. Before I did my first all grain batch, I invested in a Barley Crusher. My friend helped me set the gap, and every batch has had almost the exact same efficiency; 82-85%.

Everyone always talks about what great efficiency they get buying from Ed at BMW (~75%) and it is completely due to the crush. I believe your results are consistantly poor because you are consistantly getting a bad crush. It is impossible to convert sugars the water can't get to.

Good Luck,
Joe

 

[Northcalais40]

Did you (Thread starter) writs that you don't have a Thermometer you trust. Check it with ice water and then with boiling. Buy a $15 thermometer from a cooking supply store, buy two. Take Bobby's advice, it is the simplest and is the procedure most of us use. Also eliminate doubt and do an iodine conversion test. I do not get a complete conversion at 150F in 60 min. Check out Braukaiser.com, he has great articles.

Godspeed Sir Knight

 

[boostsr20]

My experience is that it DOES require water over 185 degrees (usually nearly 200 F) to get the grain bed from 153ish to 168 for the first round of batch sparging.

Agreed. Just finished a batch (10lbs of grain) and to get the grain bed from 152 up to 171 I used 205 degree water. Ended up with around 74% efficiency.

 

[WSLPIG]

First time on this...hope this works. I think 2qts./lb is a very thin mash. The result is that you have so much water in there, that very little (only 2 gals.) of sprage water are used. Spage water should be in the 168 to 170 degree range, BTW. But back to the subject... sparging, or lack thereof, is where you get your effiency increases or decreases. For some, i.e., batch spagers, efficiency is not that important, but for some... it's important. What is most important, however, is that you can predict and hit your target efficiencies or your O.G. is off, sometimes way off. Now, back to the subject at hand [again]... Sparging rinses the converted sugars (from starches) from the mash/grainbed into solution (wort) to the boil kettle. The more sparge water (and sparging), the greater the efficiency. Two gals. of sparge water is way too low (IMHO) for the good efficiency you seek. I used to use 1.3 qts./lb all the time and do a mashout with direct heatng (no bolilng water additions) and got good and predictable effciencies ant hit target O.G. like a champ. Then, I got away from mashout and used variable mash thicknesses, with boling water additions to mimic a mashout (168 degrees) and my effciencies were all over and my targets O.G's started to be missed as well. Other than the mash thickness variable, the other obvious variable was the amount of sparge water and sparging required. Thinner mashes don't need as much. So, if you want better efficiencies go with thicker mashes and more sparging. Sparging (fly or continuous) is not the Holy Grail, however , and batch spargers would/might argue against it. It has limits. One should not sparge past 1.013 or 1.015 as a rule, or you risk astringency. Hope this helps.

 

[agroff383]

I am by no means an efficiency junkie, but since I started brewing, it seems like I can't go under 80% even when I try. I fly sparge quickly (less than 30 minutes) with what I'd call a "braided manifold." I agree with Bobby and think you really need to take a closer look at the crush. Before I did my first all grain batch, I invested in a Barley Crusher. My friend helped me set the gap, and every batch has had almost the exact same efficiency; 82-85%.

Everyone always talks about what great efficiency they get buying from Ed at BMW (~75%) and it is completely due to the crush. I believe your results are consistantly poor because you are consistantly getting a bad crush. It is impossible to convert sugars the water can't get to.

Good Luck,
Joe

I am an efficency junkie, I would say the crush is the most important. I went from being lucky to get 60 percent to getting 80 percent just by changing the crush. Thats all I changed, dont assume the LHBS is doing it right buy some feeler gauges and check it yourself. If you are paying 1.50 plus a pound for base grain it better be right, that was my attitude.

 

[ajf]

I agree with Bobby_M.
Don't do a continuous (fly) sparge with a braid. That is almost guaranteed to give you lousy efficiency because of channeling.
Mash thicker (about 1.25 - 1.5 qt per lb). That will give you more sparge water to rinse out the sugars.
After adding the sparge water, stir really well, vorlauf, and then drain. With a batch sparge, it is the stirring that causes the sugars to be dissolved. If you don't stir, you will get very poor efficiency.
I also wouldn't do a protein rest with your grain bill. It's not necessary with modern malts which are fully modified. See http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-4.html paragraph 3
If you are mashing at temperatures in the range of 150F, I would consider increasing the saccharification rest to 90 minutes. An iodine test shout tell you if this is necessary. I find that mashing at 150F or lower usually requires more than 60 minutes to achieve full conversion.

-a.

 

[lithium726]

Wow, you guys are awesome.

I did think that my og was low given my boil gravity. Maybe the sugars werent mixed in well enough, I'm not sure.

So, for my next batch I'll do this: stiff mash, no temp rests. 90 min (same as before) mash at 150. I'll check my thermometer, but I think it's reading 5* high, it's reading 80 when my apt Tstat reads 75,which could have caused all my mashes to be low. I'll do two sparges and stir like hell, I've got an enormous brewing paddle for stirring, so that shouldn't be an issue. I'll do two smaller sparges.

How fast should I drain the mash? The sparge?

Since someone else is using HBHQ and doesn't have efficiency issues I'll hold off on blaming the crush

In the meantime, will adding some extra light dme with boiled ro water to the fermenter affect taste much? I was thinking about a lb with a small amount of water.

Btw, my tap here is awful. I did two AG batches with it and both came out awful. 's why I changed my water bill. I tasted a stout I made with that bill last might an although good, it tasted a little thin. I'll up the spring water bill.

 

[ajf]

Sounds like a good plan.
If you're batch sparging, you can drain as fast as you want with both the mash and the sparge.
If you're going to add some DME, why not add it to the end of the boiil, say about 10 - 15 minutes before flame-out? That's much easier then boiling it separately.

-a.

 

[lithium726]

Well, I would, but this is for after the fact, the beer is already in the fermenter.

I just hope it won't cause any off flavors adding it after the fact.

 

[boostsr20]

As long as you boil long enough and can get it in their without splashing it around you'll be fine. Its just like adding any other adjunct after the fact. If you plan to secondary I'd put into the primary before transferring.

 

[ajf]

Well, I would, but this is for after the fact, the beer is already in the fermenter.

I just hope it won't cause any off flavors adding it after the fact.

So what efficiency did you get?
I'm guessing it went up considerably, and will creep up a bit more in future batches as you get used to the process.

-a.

 

[lithium726]

So what efficiency did you get?
I'm guessing it went up considerably, and will creep up a bit more in future batches as you get used to the process.

-a.

Right now I have 3 batches in Primary: a Dubbel, a Vienna and a Mexican lager (currently waiting to be bottled)

I'll doing doing a christmas ale (similar to SA Old Fezziwig) when the Vienna is done in Primary and a SA winter lager when the ale is done fermenting (i'm gonna use T58 and I want to keep it at 65 in my cooler)

So I'll update in a few weeks, I'm hoping for good results!

 

[oldman2251]

I hear you and I went to the same place you are in Richardson. My efficiency kept going down and down, I felt like giving up. My last efficiency was 46%. Then I read a post and a person said to try Northern Brewer and see what happens to rule out the crush. I went to the other Homebrew Shop in Dallas at 35 and Beltline and wow what a difference, Irish Ale 84% efficiency, they use a Barley Crusher at factory settings and that worked like a charm. Don't try anything else until you get a crush from a different crush. You won't be sorry.

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

+1 to the "other" LHBS in Dallas. Winemakers Toystore is a great store! I got 77% this weekend with thier crush in a 14lb grain bill.

 

[modernlifeisANDY]

Hopefully I didn't miss this, but are you adjusting your gravity readings pre-boil for temperature? Post boil?

 

[truckjohn]

Another idea.... Have you tried letting it mash for longer at your temps... like try out 2 or 3 hours at 150F instead of just 1....

If your crush is a little too coarse -- it will take a bunch longer for it to mash out properly.....

If you still have a pile of that malted barley, and can't re-crush it... try out mashing it in a big 'ole pot on the stove top with a kitchen thermometer at hand... get it to 150 and turn off the heat, put on the lid.... When it drops to 145 -- turn on the heat to medium and slowly heat it back up to 150, turn it off, then put the lid on again....

It could easily take a long time -- as in a couple hours to overnight depending on how coarse your crush ended up....

Thanks

John

 

[tunoffun]

I'll check my thermometer, but I think it's reading 5* high, it's reading 80 when my apt Tstat reads 75,which could have caused all my mashes to be low.

I think its far more likely your thermo is right and the t-stat is wrong, from an accuracy perspective. Besides... a thermostat is designed to allow the temperature to swing a few degrees either way before it kicks on the heating/cooling. So checking your thermometer against a known standard is good, but the t-stat is meaningless.

As for the rest... I agree w/ everyone else who said thicken up the mash (1.2 - 1.3?), equal sparge batches, and stirring them in well.

Also - if it hasn't been said - make sure when you initially add the strike water to the grains that you stir it in REALLY, REALLY WELL... eliminating any possibility of any dry spots / doughballs in the grain. Then let it sit a few minutes covered to make sure the temps equalize - and then check the temp.

 

[lithium726]

I wish I could go to the winemaker's toy store... but it's a good 40 mile round trip for me, and that's IF I take the toll way... which is probably about equal to shipping from AHS (The M3 isn't awesome on gas...) and I don't waste any time that way.

I put the termo in an ice bath and it came up reading 40F, so I'm going to say it's 8F off and use that delta to mash this time. Should result in some more body, since I've aparently been mashing at ~144F this whole time. Resulted in a pretty thin stout.

I have an enormous paddle for stirring and stir constantly as the strike water is pouring in (I just have it flow freely from my kettle spout) and then let it equalize, so I know my temp readings are accurite for the whole mash. I do not have a pot/kettle that I can mash in, so it's going to have to stay in the cooler.

I am adjusting gravity readings.

I'm brewing a christmas ale tonight, I'll let y'all know how it goes. Shooting for an OG of 1.074 at 75%. What BG should I expect? Grain bill is 13.87 lbs.

 

[BryanJ]

I think you're forgetting M3's are fun to drive. Thanks for the thread, it has helped me a bit with my sometimes low efficiency.

 

[lithium726]

I think you're forgetting M3's are fun to drive.

Oh no. They're just far more fun to drive on the racetrack than the highway

 

[BryanJ]

Very true, going to the track is a lot of fun.

 

[lithium726]

BG = 1.036 @ 130F for 6.4gal = 1.049 @ 60F.

Not Awful, not amazing. Grain bill was 13.75lb. I'm predicting around 65% eff.

edit: OG is 1.054ish. Again, seems like the calculation for gravity based off temperature is a little off. In any case, I'm not going to be buying grain from HBHQ any more, as it appears that they don't crush it well. I may make a trip over to the toy store sometime, or I may just order from AHS or northern brewer from now on. My highest eff has come from some AHS grain I got.

It's really annoying that I have a LHBS so close and I can't buy f'ing grain from there. ugh.

 

[kickz28]

I don't know if I'm missing something, but I'm reading this thread trying to find tips to improve my own efficiency, and it seems that you guys are recommending sparge water temperatures to be between 185-205 depending on who's the poster.

I only brewed an all grain once so far (still bottle conditioning so I don't know if it's good yet), and I followed the BeerSmith brew sheet and also Palmer's book. BeerSmith is telling me to batch sparge in two rounds, width 168F water. Palmer recommends no more than 170F but not too much less.

So am I missing something here ?

Thanks!

 

[johnodon]

I don't know if I'm missing something, but I'm reading this thread trying to find tips to improve my own efficiency, and it seems that you guys are recommending sparge water temperatures to be between 185-205 depending on who's the poster.

I only brewed an all grain once so far (still bottle conditioning so I don't know if it's good yet), and I followed the BeerSmith brew sheet and also Palmer's book. BeerSmith is telling me to batch sparge in two rounds, width 168F water. Palmer recommends no more than 170F but not too much less.

So am I missing something here ?

Thanks!

You want the grain bed to end up being 168* - 170* when you sparge to stop conversion. So, if you are mashing at 150*, you need to make sure your sparge water is hot enough to get the bed up to the desired temp. Sparging at only 170* when the bed is already 150* will raise the bed temp by only a few degrees. I love Beersmith, but I always ignore its sparge water temp suggestions.

Personally, my first sparge is at ~205* and my second one is at ~185*.

John

 

[kickz28]

You want the grain bed to end up being 168* - 170* when you sparge to stop conversion. So, if you are mashing at 150*, you need to make sure your sparge water is hot enough to get the bed up to the desired temp. Sparging at only 170* when the bed is already 150* will raise the bed temp by only a few degrees. I love Beersmith, but I always ignore its sparge water temp suggestions.

Personally, my first sparge is at ~205* and my second one is at ~185*.

John

I wish I would have known this before. This is not what BeerSmith and the Palmer book are telling me:

BeerSmith says:

Batch Sparge Round 1 : Sparge with 1.16 gal of 168.0 F water.
Batch Sparge Round 2 : Sparge with 3.42 gal of 168.0 F water.

Palmer says:

The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170 F (77 C), as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, especially when the wort pH gets to 6 or above. This will lead to astringency in the beer. But it shouldn't be much less than 170 F either (i.e. 165 F or 74 C). You want good fluidity.

 

[johnodon]

I wish I would have known this before. This is not what BeerSmith and the Palmer book are telling me:

BeerSmith says:


Palmer says:

I am far from an expert so wait for others to chime in but this is teh way it was explained to me.

John

 

[tunoffun]

I don't know if I'm missing something, but I'm reading this thread trying to find tips to improve my own efficiency, and it seems that you guys are recommending sparge water temperatures to be between 185-205 depending on who's the poster.

I only brewed an all grain once so far (still bottle conditioning so I don't know if it's good yet), and I followed the BeerSmith brew sheet and also Palmer's book. BeerSmith is telling me to batch sparge in two rounds, width 168F water. Palmer recommends no more than 170F but not too much less.

So am I missing something here ?

Thanks!

In either case, the idea is to not let the grain bed rise over 170 degrees or so in order to minimize tannin extraction. When people advocate sparge temperatures over 170, the temp and volume is calculated so as to up the temp of the grain bed to just under 170. The amount & temp of the water you add is dependent on the amount of grain, its current temp, the amount of water in the grain, etc (all this can be calculated through beersmith in the 'tools' section). Naturally, if you go this route, you want to stir in the water quick & well to quickly equalize the temps & avoid hot-spots.

If you batch sparge in multiple rounds, you can do things a few ways. The simplest is just to add 168-170 degree water. Your grain bed will naturally never get above 170 this way, but you're probably not getting it as warm as it could be either, which might limit efficiency (though I doubt by much).

Another way would be to add water of the required temp on the first round to bring the grain bed up to 168 or so, and then use 168-degree water for the remaining round(s). This would probably give you the best efficiency, but it requires a bit more work heating water. Depending on the volumes you're working with, you'd probably be adding first-round water of 185-boiling.

A third way would be to calculate a single temperature that will reach approx 168 by the end of all your sparging rounds. Since I personally don't want to dick with doing anything other than transferring water from my HLT to the tun - that's what I did. I found that if I use 173-degree sparge water, and 2 sparging rounds, then the last one gets the bed up to about 168.