Hybrid Fly Sparge Technique

[williamgardner]

Ok, really want to try this but really new to the All Grain thing. Lets see if I got it right:

- Mash In
-Mash Out

Vorlauf, Slowly drain (1qt per minute, roughly)
When grain bed has 2-3 inches of water on top, start your sparge
When you get desired preboil level, stop
So no draining off the cooler after mash out and then sparging

Sorry if this is wrong but hats why Im asking....thanks in advance for your help...

 

[jeremyx]

After reading this: http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/07/04/sparging-methods/ I'd just go with batch sparging.

 

[BierMuncher]

After reading this: http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/07/04/sparging-methods/ I'd just go with batch sparging.

Hardly what I'd call an unbiased view of both methods. Choosing your brewing technique based on the opinion blog of one particular homebrewer really is a narrow means by which to find your homebrewing zen.

If you search, I think there is someone around here that swears by urinating on their equipment to sanitize it.

I'd suggest you dial in your system and do what works best for you.

 

[defenestrate]

i gave this a shot and it worked great. after the mash was completed, i recirculated for about 5 min or until it was running clear. i then cut the power to the pump, threw a piece of tubing onto the outlet of the MLT and hooked the pump to the HLT and opened it up 100%, just using the valve on the pump to control flow(less valves to worry about). after some fiddling i was able to keep about 2 inchs of water on top of the mash and the total sparge took about 30 min. i just used the aluminum foil to avoid drilling a hole into the mash bed. the runnings were clearer then i've ever had doing a double batch sparge and i had a slight increase of efficiency.
btw, i was running into the ale pales because i actually was finishing up a previous batches boil in the kettle. thumbs up.

 

[BierMuncher]

Great to hear. Yeah...the clarity of the wort when fly sparging is one big benefit that is rarely mentioned.

 

[defenestrate]

Great to hear. Yeah...the clarity of the wort when fly sparging is one big benefit that is rarely mentioned.

That plus less work involved is reason enough for me

 

[Peacedale]

I have been batch sparging for several years. I am thinking of trying the fly sparge to improve my efficiency which has hovered between 77% and 80%. After conducting the mash, does anyone add a calculated volume of boiling water to raise the temp of the mash to 168F - let it rest for 15 minutes - and then begin the fly sparge process?

 

[sideshow_ben]

I swtched to batch sparging because I could never get the water
in and water out rates close to each other. Now I have a huge MLT and I'm wondering if it would work just as well to add the sparge water more quickly than it drains, as long as the water delivery didn't disturb the grain bed. I might end up with 5 or more inches of water above the grain bed but I wouldn't go neurotic fiddling with valve openings, or more usually, adding sparge water too slowly so that the water level dips below the grain.

Thoughts? Is there something "special" about the "2-3 inch above grain" rule that must be respected?

-ben

 

[brewchez]

I really don't understand how this is not just fly sparging. The only difference seems to be the way the water is being delivered to the top of the bed. How is this any faster than normal fly sparging? The time and efficiency of a fly sparge is equipment dependent and some systems run faster than others but achieve the same efficiency.

 

[spareparts]

^ I'm in agreement.

I started reading this post thinking that someone was doing what I've been doing which is more of a hybrid method. I didn't read through all the pages so maybe someone already mentioned the method below.

I use a copper manifold instead of the braided hose. And I generally only do this on big beers to try to capture the lost efficiency (lately all my beers have been big so I've been doing it quite a lot).

After mash I vorlauf until reasonably clear. Then completely drain the mashtun.

Fill up with heated batch sparge water, stir, and let sit for about ten minutes.

Then I re-voulauf. I let the second runnings go a little bit slower, maybe my ball valve at 1/3 open. Once the wort drains to about an inch below the top of the grain bed I ladle hot sparge water on until it's about an inch above the grain bed. I continue doing this until I hit my target volume. On big beers (1.070 and above) my efficiency is averaging a point or two above 80%.

 

[CaliBrewin]

spareparts:

that sounds like a true hybrid method, using both techniques to acquire the wort.

do you feel this method has any benefit over just fly sparging though?

 

[spareparts]

spareparts:

that sounds like a true hybrid method, using both techniques to acquire the wort.

do you feel this method has any benefit over just fly sparging though?

It speeds up the lautering time IMO. I get horrible effiencies when I batch sparge on my set up for some reason. I get great efficiency when I fly sparge but as we know it also takes a bit longer. So instead of rinsing the grains slowly from start to finish I figured I'd save my self some time by developing a hybrid method and it's been working well for me on the last couple dozen batches.

 

[bmckee56]

I read most, but not all of the posts on this thread. I have been "Fly Sparging" from the begining, because I thought my 5 gallon MLT would not hold sufficient water level/grain quantity to batch sparg the way I understood it was supposed to be done. So...... I get very good results using my method of "Fly Sparging".

I initially used a small plastic container tha I drilled a ton of tiny holes into the bottom of and simply filled it up with 180F. H2O and moved it around the grain bed top layer. Now, I have a manifold made up with a ton of tiny little holes drilled into the bottom and it needs no manpower to hold it there. I open up my valve a small amount and try to keep the water level 1-2 inches above the grain at all times. My drain rate is such that it typically takes me from 30-40 minutes to collect my boil volume into the pot.

I think (even though my numbers are good) that I may need to slow this down a bit and improve the numbers even more.

BM..... your original post is great and I thank you for putting it up. Initially I could not be certain what method I was using.

Salute!

 

[ishkochito]

I've only made a few all-grain batches, and this is the only method I've used to sparge (except slightly lower water temp). I've ended up with higher OG and ABV than I expected on most of these. I try to rinse as much of the sugars out as possible by timing the valve output and saucepan water input to take nearly an hour, and I've taken at least 45 min each time. How quickly can I do this and get the same effect?

 

[bspisak]

Well, this is fly sparging plain and simple. The method of delivering the water to the top of the grain bed is irrelevant. How fast you drain the tun is irrelevant. Not matching flow rates of sparge and runnings is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that you set the grain bed and add water without stirring or otherwise disturbing the grain to distribute the water. At this point you're relying on even rinsing of the grain bed for your extraction efficiency.

The reason this works for you is that you're using a manifold. The manifold allows even rinsing of the grain bed. If you try this with a simple straight braid instead, your efficiency will drop due to classic channeling issues. A circular braid will be a bit better. A manifold design is usually quite good and a false bottom typically the best.

Brian

 

[nstorm1121]

I have a question about one thing. I was under the impression that you do not want any water at a temperature higher than 169 touching your grain to avoid tannins from the hulls. However, I have read in this post to use water over 185, and some other posts with people using 190-200 degree water. Could anyone please comment on that?

I have been fly sparging in a large gatorade cooler with a straight braid and have been only getting 62-64% efficiency. Maybe I'm sparging too fast, or maybe it's the braid (channeling), or maybe it's the water temp (ive been using around 165-170). I'm not too concerned because it's only costing like $1.50-$2.00 a batch, but it's more of a pride thing!

 

[bspisak]

I have been fly sparging in a large gatorade cooler with a straight braid and have been only getting 62-64% efficiency.

It's your straight braid. To prove it, try batch sparging and you should see 70%.

I have a question about one thing. I was under the impression that you do not want any water at a temperature higher than 169 touching your grain to avoid tannins from the hulls. However, I have read in this post to use water over 185, and some other posts with people using 190-200 degree water. Could anyone please comment on that?

The idea is to raise the temperature of the mash (mash out) to kill enzyme activity (thus locking in your sugar profile) and to improve lautering. Without the ability to heat the mash to mashout temps (either by direct fire, recirc, or other methods) prior to sparging, many brewers sparge with a higher temp water. The water cools as it penetrates the mash such that the overall temp never rises above 170F.

I've seen pro-brewers use 175F when fly sparging, 185F works for me when batch sparging, but 190-200 seems a bit high. You can monitor the temp of your mash to determine what works best for you.

 

[nstorm1121]

So, when you batch sparge, do you just drain all the way, then add 185F water, stir, let sit for 10-15 minutes, and sparge again? That simple?

 

[Bobby_M]

So, when you batch sparge, do you just drain all the way, then add 185F water, stir, let sit for 10-15 minutes, and sparge DRAIN again? That simple?

Yes.

 

[bspisak]

So, when you batch sparge, do you just drain all the way, then add 185F water, stir, let sit for 10-15 minutes, and sparge again? That simple?

That's basically it.

You'll want to choose a strike temperature for your sparge water (it's not necessarily 185F) to bring your mash to mash out temp without exceeding 170F. It will depend on the amount of grain, your grain temp, ambient temp and heat loss of your tun (after you take your first runnings but before you sparge.) Use a calculator or just start low and fine tune. I wouldn't worry too much about being low, but just don't let it get above 170F (measured after you mix in your sparge water and let it normalize after a few minutes.)

You don't necessarily have to sparge twice either. If you have the capacity (both HLT and Mash tun) to heat all your sparge water and add it to your tun in one shot, then you can save time and will often maintain a reasonable efficiency. The maximal point for efficiency is when you calculate your strike volumes such that both your first runnings and second runnings are equal volume. Using this method, you don't mash in at a specific water to grain ratio.

I would recommend starting off with two sparges. Mash in as you normally do using whatever water to grain ration you normally do. Calculate the total sparge water needed, then split that into two and do two batch sparges of equal size. Once you validate that your efficiency is better, you've proven the braid is the source of your problem and you can play around with other sparge parameters. Some folks claim to get 70% with no sparge. I typically get 75% with a single batch sparge. But, it will vary based on the amount of grain your using.

Brian

 

[nstorm1121]

Can I drain as fast as I want then? Then this is much quicker than fly sparging, right?

 

[bspisak]

Can I drain as fast as I want then? Then this is much quicker than fly sparging, right?

The rate you drain the tun won't affect your efficiency. However, you may find that you still need to start slow and gradually open it up as you still need to set the grain bed for filtration. I find that about 2/3 open is where I typically end up. Vorlauf as usual.

Brian

 

[trent]

I just wanna say I do this too, I didn't even realize it. Works great, I always hit 80-85% with my HERMS setup.

 

[millsware]

I got really disappointing efficiency last night. I planned for six gallons of 1.064 and got 5 gallons of 1.057. That's a big difference. I was thinking that I oversparged, (4.5 gallons of mash, 4 of sparge, 15 lbs grain) but maybe I just didn't sparge well. I was still getting pretty dark wort out of the mashtun once I hit my volume. I'll have to try this in addition to paying more attention to the gravity readings at different points throughout the process.

 

[scottland]

So i've starting doing a true hybrid sparge. Employing this technique, and batch sparging.

I mash, then drain my 1st runnings.
I then split my sparge water into two amounts.
Pour in the first batch of sparge water, stir like crazy, vourlouf, then collect those runnings.

Here's when I start Fly Sparging, as i'm collecting my 2nd runnings, I start the method listed in this thread, keeping 1-2" of hot water over the grain bed..

Basically it's a double batch sparge, but I fly the 2nd batch. I started doing this out of laziness so I wouldn't have to re-set the grain bed, and re-vorlouf after my 2nd batch sparge, but now i'm finding a little higher efficiency, and clearer wort.

 

[JayB240]

At the risk of hi-jacking the thread....
What is the best method to determine mash completion ?

J

 

[beergynt]

small tip: put small plate or saucer on top of the grain bed and pour sparge water on it, this way you won't disturb the grain bed even if you pour a bit faster.

+1... I used to use a false bottom but hated it so I built a manifold. Though I don't let the false bottom go to waste. I took the fitting off of it and now lay it atop the grain bed during my sparge. The curvature and perforation works nicely for even distribution of sparge water with no worries of channeling.

 

[JayB240]

I use a copper manifold that I made.... I cover the manifold with a 5 gallon paint strainer bag prior to introducing the grain to the Mash Tun. Output from the Mash Tun is clear
from the beginning thus eliminate vorlauf all together.

I am currently looking for better ways to add sparge water without disturbing the grain bed.

J

 

[CaseyHeartBeers]

So is the overall opinion that you shouldn't use this method with a straight braid in a rectangle cooler?

 

[BierMuncher]

So is the overall opinion that you shouldn't use this method with a straight braid in a rectangle cooler?

If you can find an identically sized rectangular container it should work. The main point is slowly drizzling water over the entire surface of the mash.