How to Make a IIPA Less Sweet

[jalgayer]

Hey All,

It seems that often an IIPA with a higher starting gravity ends up getting to be pretty sweet.

For example DFH90min off the top of my head.

I also made a pliny clone (Austin HB) that drank like an APA with heavy hop aroma and flavor for the first 2-3 weeks after bottling.... Then it turned rather sweet and (obviously) some of the flavor/aroma had subsided.

I am looking for tips on how to reduce the sweetness that appears after a while.

And it (in my opinion) was NOT there in the first 2-3 weeks. It wasnt just hidden or balance by the hops... it just wasnt there.

Hope this makes sense and I can get some tips here.

 

[the_bird]

Well, you need to do whatever you can to promote attenuation. Mash as low as you can (I'm assuming that you're brewing AG), down to 148°-ish. A longer mash (90 minute) may also help promote attenuation. Limit the amount of specialty grains, remember that all of your crystal malts are adding a lot of unfermentable sugars. I tend to like using a little bit of a character malt like a Munich that'll add some complexity while still fermenting out. Clean American ale yeasts tend to ferment out fully and completely, moreso than something like an English ale yeast.

And, if you're really having issues... subbing in a wee bit of a simple sugar, like a pound of table sugar, you aren't going to get any off notes from a small addition like that but you'll still bump your OG and get basically 100% attenuation from those sugars.

 

[smizak]

the_bird is right. It's pretty much standard to have at least a pound of sugar in a IIPA recipe. All malt and it's too much like a barleywine, need the simple sugar to get it dry at those gravities.

 

[jalgayer]

Thanks for those tips... I think I took care of some of those already ... The recipe I came up with over the last few weeks is as follows. The grain is already set so I cannot alter it but anything else can be tweaked if you see an issue:

Mashing at 148-149F ( I was going to go with 152F but saw your suggestion)
3.5lb Pale 2-Row
.75lb Munich
.75lb Wheat Malt
.5lb Crystal 60L

3# Light Dry Extract
2.5# dark LME (added last 5 min)
1.25lb corn sugar

2oz warrior (90min)
2oz nothern brewer (90min)
1oz simcoe (30min)
.5oz citra (30min)
1oz citra (10min)
.5oz amarillo (10min)
1oz amarillo (5min)
1oz simcoe (0min)

6oz (total) of simcoe, amarillo and citra dry hopping in two 5 day installments

Pacman Yeast Attenuation 72-78%

2 weeks-ish primary
1 month secondary (last 10 days dryhopping)

Thoughts?

 

[the_bird]

Why the dark extract? Not sure the composition of that; if it's something formulated more for making things like porters and stouts, it may have been created with specialty grains that you wouldn't necessarily want to add to an IIPA. Hard sometimes to know exactly what's in those extract cans.

If I were brewing an IIPA and *had* to use extract, I'd use the palest dry extract I could find. Leave all the color and "other" flavors to your specialty grains.

 

[permo]

Mash low and long, maybe even try an overnight mash, and you can also add sugar to the fermenter to help dry it out.

 

[Jawbox0]

Definately move the mash lower, also, can you sub out some of the Extract for grain? I've always heard that extract shoots for a profile where there are still quite a few unfermentables as if you were mashing at 152-154. Subbing out the LME for two row mashed low and slow might help cut down on the unfermentables.

 

[jalgayer]

good question about the dark extract. I am a partial masher... and build by starting with the grain bill (5lb max or so...) then add extract to get to the gravity. I didnt want a lot of dark caramel malt so I used some dark liquid to get the color and gravity I wanted.

I am pretty new to this so I didnt realize that there may be some flavors that I dont want in the dark lme. I am hoping that the rest of the malt and the big hops will not allow the dark to take over then I guess...

Why the dark extract? Not sure the composition of that; if it's something formulated more for making things like porters and stouts, it may have been created with specialty grains that you wouldn't necessarily want to add to an IIPA. Hard sometimes to know exactly what's in those extract cans.

If I were brewing an IIPA and *had* to use extract, I'd use the palest dry extract I could find. Leave all the color and "other" flavors to your specialty grains.

 

[smizak]

Those dark extracts are not very fermentable either. Just go with a small amount of crystal, 5% or less, to get a little color. Nothing over C60 IMO.

 

[SumnerH]

good question about the dark extract. I am a partial masher... and build by starting with the grain bill (5lb max or so...) then add extract to get to the gravity. I didnt want a lot of dark caramel malt so I used some dark liquid to get the color and gravity I wanted.

Just as a for instance, the data sheet from the manufacturer says the ingredients in Briess dark LME are "Base Malt, Caramel Malt 60L, Munich Malt, Black Malt". (other manufacturers are similer). Unfortunately, you have no idea what their proportions are.

You say you didn't want a lot of caramel malt, but the liquid malt includes a lot of caramel malt.

In my opinion, the best way to build up a partial mash is to use only one malt extract, the lightest available. Then build up the character of the beer with your grains.

By layering on top of light extract (which is almost all 2-row, often with some carapils added) you get a lot more control over exactly what is going into your beer.

 

[Grimm]

I like to use light pilsen LME or DME for my IIPA's coupled with some vienna or munich grains. Then a wee bit of sugar to bump the abv up.

 

[the_bird]

I'm not sure one can make a generalized statement or not... but it seems that more often that not, if an extract brewer is having difficulties with attenuation it often seems to be liquid extract. Make sure that you're using a high-quality extract, something that you know is fresh and that you know what you're getting. I know Northern Brewer sells some high-quality liquid extracts, and they'll tell you specifically what you're getting.

Guess the way that I look at it - if you're going to all the expense of making an IIPA, don't settle for just any old can of LME. Spend a couple dollars more to make sure you're getting a really high quality product. The cans, I just don't really trust that you know what's in them or how long it's been in there.

 

[jalgayer]

Hey
Thanks for the tips. I am using LME from Brewmasters Warehouse. I havent really had problems with attenuation I dont think. Seems like the beers ended up at the gravities that they should.

I will have to remember that about the Dark LME.

 

[the_bird]

Ed could probably tell you everything you want to know, plus a lot more, about the stuff he's selling.

As a general rule, though, use the lightest extract you can find, get your color and flavor profile in your mash.

 

[jalgayer]

Wow...good news... I actually didnt get dark LME I got extra light LME (just checked my order history). I knew that looked a little weird in there... I figured I got it for color... but even that seemed off to me.

Anyways, same recipe, but with extra light LME...

I plan a 148F 90 min mash... but do you think I need to go longer? 120 min?

 

[Brewmasters Warehouse]

Just my 2 cents here, but when I formulate partial mash recipes I try to use only the Light and Extra Light LME/DME. If you can mash 5 lbs of grain you should be able to get all of your specialty grains for your recipe in the mash and have better control of the actual flavor your adding rather than going with a darker LME/DME.

The other suggestions about mashing low and using sugar are both very good ideas to help get some of the sweetness out of a Double IPA. By using both sugar and a low mash temp you will not only dry out the beer, get full attenuation, but in my experience it will help the beer age faster than by not, which really helps you be able to drink your IIPA when the hop flavor and aromas are still at their peak.

Ed

Ed

 

[jalgayer]

Sweet, Ed. Thanks for chiming in.

 

[cylered16]

Funny this came up. I'm fermenting an IIPA right now. OG of 79.
I mashed for 60 minutes at 148 and added 1.85 lbs. of corn sugar prior to boiling for 90 minutes. I probably could have mashed longer but my iodine test passed so I just rolled with it. I'd really like to try a 2 hour mash at say, 146. However, I also read an article with Vinnie Cilurzo talking about how he only mashes for 20 minutes. Which I find hard to believe.

 

[the_bird]

You can get full conversion after 20 minutes, but that just means that your starches have turned to sugar. That doesn't mean that the sugars have all been broken down into stuff the yeast can ferment (dextrines are still sugars, after all). There may be other aspects of his process that boost his attenuation along the way, too, or he may have been mashing for a less-fermentable wort (or a wort that was going to be fermented with Brett, which can break down dextrines).

 

[Catt22]

I keep seeing the suggestion to add sugar to dry out the beer some. IMO, this is BS. Simply adding sugar without reducing some other part of the grain bill (or extract) will only increase the ABV. The unfermentable sugars will still be present. An increase in the ABV dies not equate to a dryer beer. The key is to reduce the crystal malt and mash at the low end of the scarification temp range. Pitch a sufficient amount of yeast ( a starter helps with this) and use a yeast with good attenuation properties. Lastly, get the bittering hops right. Increasing the bittering hops can offset residual sweetness considerably.

 

[the_bird]

I keep seeing the suggestion to add sugar to dry out the beer some. IMO, this is BS. Simply adding sugar without reducing some other part of the grain bill (or extract) will only increase the ABV.

Let me quote myself.

subbing in a wee bit of a simple sugar, like a pound of table sugar

 

[Catt22]

Let me quote myself.

Oops! I missed where you said subbing. Sorry about that. You had it right then.

 

[smizak]

I keep seeing the suggestion to add sugar to dry out the beer some. IMO, this is BS. Simply adding sugar without reducing some other part of the grain bill (or extract) will only increase the ABV. The unfermentable sugars will still be present. An increase in the ABV dies not equate to a dryer beer.

I disagree. The alcohol increases the perception of dryness. Alcohol has a lower specific gravity than water. The sugar completely ferments out and decreases the final gravity of the beer. It's why a wine or cider, and sometimes a beer, will have a sub-1.000 final gravity.

 

[Catt22]

I disagree. The alcohol increases the perception of dryness. Alcohol has a lower specific gravity than water. The sugar completely ferments out and decreases the final gravity of the beer. It's why a wine or cider, and sometimes a beer, will have a sub-1.000 final gravity.

Yeah, but I think you would have to use an awful lot of sugar to do so and then the ABV might be a lot higher than desired. I'm not convinced that diluting the unfermentable sugars using alcohol is a good way to go about it. This would probably result in a considerably different beer than what was originally intended.

 

[JKoravos]

I disagree. The alcohol increases the perception of dryness. Alcohol has a lower specific gravity than water. The sugar completely ferments out and decreases the final gravity of the beer. It's why a wine or cider, and sometimes a beer, will have a sub-1.000 final gravity.

+1.

Pure sugar has a negative gravity contribution. It dries out the beer even if you don't sub it for anything.

It is obviously more effective if you add sugar AND take some malt out.

 

[JKoravos]

Thanks for those tips... I think I took care of some of those already ... The recipe I came up with over the last few weeks is as follows. The grain is already set so I cannot alter it but anything else can be tweaked if you see an issue:

Mashing at 148-149F ( I was going to go with 152F but saw your suggestion)
3.5lb Pale 2-Row
.75lb Munich
.75lb Wheat Malt
.5lb Crystal 60L

3# Light Dry Extract
2.5# dark LME (added last 5 min)
1.25lb corn sugar

2oz warrior (90min)
2oz nothern brewer (90min)
1oz simcoe (30min)
.5oz citra (30min)
1oz citra (10min)
.5oz amarillo (10min)
1oz amarillo (5min)
1oz simcoe (0min)

6oz (total) of simcoe, amarillo and citra dry hopping in two 5 day installments

Pacman Yeast Attenuation 72-78%

2 weeks-ish primary
1 month secondary (last 10 days dryhopping)

Thoughts?

If you're going to use 5.5# of extract I'd up your sugar contribution to 1.75 or 2#.

Also, your bittering addition seems high. I'd cut it in half.

 

[Sleepyemt]

I'd also look at your water profile, The addition of gypsum could help increase the hop bitterness by hardening the water. In turn adding to your percieved bitterness .....I wouldn't add them blindly though, check your water profile first ...

 

[jalgayer]

Hey thanks for chiming in... As for the amount of sugar... I like to keep it lower if I can that is why I went with 1.25 lbs. 2 lbs seems like a lot to me and I always seem to hear to keep it small with corn sugar... I know that it is in relation to the overall grain/extract bill... But I felt that 1.25 was enough.

And with no one else suggesting more sugar I am hoping that I am ok there.

As far as the bittering hops being a high amount... well, so are the other additions

I made a pliny clone earlier this year as was going for a similar IBU level.

Anyone else on the adding of 2# of sugar to this recipe? Would like to keep it in mind for a future brew. Or add more to this one I guess.

If you're going to use 5.5# of extract I'd up your sugar contribution to 1.75 or 2#.

Also, your bittering addition seems high. I'd cut it in half.

 

[JKoravos]

Hey thanks for chiming in... As for the amount of sugar... I like to keep it lower if I can that is why I went with 1.25 lbs. 2 lbs seems like a lot to me and I always seem to hear to keep it small with corn sugar... I know that it is in relation to the overall grain/extract bill... But I felt that 1.25 was enough.

And with no one else suggesting more sugar I am hoping that I am ok there.

As far as the bittering hops being a high amount... well, so are the other additions

I made a pliny clone earlier this year as was going for a similar IBU level.

Anyone else on the adding of 2# of sugar to this recipe? Would like to keep it in mind for a future brew. Or add more to this one I guess.

The reason I suggested 2# is because you are using malt extract which likely has a lower fermentability that a wort you would make with all-grain. The extra sugar accounts for the increased unfermentables in the extract. 1.25# is probably fine. Try it out, see what happens.

 

[Brewmasters Warehouse]

I agree with the 2 lbs. of corn sugar actually, based on JKoravos reasoning. I use 2 lbs of corn sugar in a 10 gallon batch of IIPA, but I also mash at 148 for that recipe, which gives me a more fermentable wort than the extract would especially since you are adding some dark dme. Upping the corn sugar would help eliminate some perception of sweetness.

Ed