How to keep Trub out of the fermenter

[Big Monk]

Unfortunately the SS Brewtech "trub dam" as they refer to it is neither patentented (you can buy it from the Chinese manufacturer on Ali) nor effective. It's way too small and, especially with the larger kettles (it's a one-size-fits-all which is just plain silly), you'll have trub sliding through from above and from the sides. It's a 10 for effort but a 2 for execution at best...
That's based on my experience using a 15 gal BrewKettle with tangential inlet as a whirlpool.

The Stout unit is much larger than the SS unit:

 

[Goowa]

Unfortunately the SS Brewtech "trub dam" as they refer to it is neither patentented (you can buy it from the Chinese manufacturer on Ali) nor effective. It's way too small and, especially with the larger kettles (it's a one-size-fits-all which is just plain silly), you'll have trub sliding through from above and from the sides. It's a 10 for effort but a 2 for execution at best...
That's based on my experience using a 15 gal BrewKettle with tangential inlet as a whirlpool.

*shrugs* YMMV I guess. I have the same 15Ga kettle and using their Whirlpool fitting in the port directly above the drain. I only do 5 gallon batches tho, so maybe I don't have as large a volume of garbage at the end. Also as mentioned in my first post, I'm not all that particular about what goes into the fermenter.

 

[jrgtr42]

I like to keep as much trub out of my fermenter as possible. before I got my new kettle, I would just pour the wort through a sanitized kitchen strainer. Got the most out with the bonus of aerating the wort. The trouble would be with very hoppy beers the strainer would fill up, sometimes multiple times.
Now that I have a bigger kettle with a spout, I'm hoping to be able to just use that, run it into through the strainer. The once brew I;ve done on it uses whole hops, which clogged the spout. I have to look at it to see if there;s a mount for an internal strainer or something, or hope that pellet hops will go through cleanly and get caught by my big strainer.

 

[Goowa]

I like to keep as much trub out of my fermenter as possible. before I got my new kettle, I would just pour the wort through a sanitized kitchen strainer. Got the most out with the bonus of aerating the wort. The trouble would be with very hoppy beers the strainer would fill up, sometimes multiple times.
Now that I have a bigger kettle with a spout, I'm hoping to be able to just use that, run it into through the strainer. The once brew I;ve done on it uses whole hops, which clogged the spout. I have to look at it to see if there;s a mount for an internal strainer or something, or hope that pellet hops will go through cleanly and get caught by my big strainer.

Here's what I do with whole cone (attached) stuff a piece of stainless steel wool behind that 'trub dam'.

 

[augiedoggy]

I alway read and see people not using hop bags for boiling/whirlpool pellet hop additions. I hear you get better hop utilization without using hop bags. I have never tried adding the pellets directly to my wort of my electric kettle. what’s the best practice to keep the Trub out of your fermenter. I have a whirlpool arm from brewhardware.com and a solar water pump, The small tan one some people on here use. How or what methods work best. I want to know how you do it correctly so I don’t mess up my batch.

ive brewed the same recipes with and without and notice no difference in hop utilization.. since we have gone to a 3bbl setup at the nanobrewery we found the hop utilization is too high even using hop bags and have to scale them back as its over 100%
we still whirlpool and found theres still hop residue that makes it through some of our bags that arent as fine of a mesh as others..
so far zero issues with the plate chiller.
at home I use stainless hop spiders (2 of the larger 300micron ones)

 

[Cavpilot2000]

The settling period can't be emphasized ehough.
All the stuff RPIScotty said will work wonders.
Two things I didn't see him mention though:
1: CHill as fast as you possibly can to get good cold break formation, which will help it settle out more cleanly.
2: Overbuild your recipe and the water you use to account for volume loss due to trub.

For example: I brew enough volume to aim for 7 gallons post-boil.
I aim the dip tube in my kettle sideways, so it is picking up from about 2-2.5 inches from the bottom of the kettle. Doing that allows me to suck from above the trub layer (once it has settled for about 30 minutes post-chilling). Doing this I end up leaving behind about a whole gallon of wort/trub, but I am able to get 6 gallons of nearly crystal clear wort into my fermenter, which accounting for yeast harvesting and hydrometer sample loss, usually gives me 5 gallons into the serving keg.

So, I get 7 gallons post-boil, 6 gallons trub-free clear wort into fermenter, 5 gallons into keg.

Some might call that wasteful, but a couple more pounds of grain is cheap and I want zero trub in my fermenter, so I decided a while back to bite the bullet and accept the waste/loss.

 

[kh54s10]

IMO, make a little effort to lessen the trub going into the fermenter, then RDWHAHB. It won't hurt your beer if a little gets into the fermenter.

I don't have a double strainer. I tried a kitchen strainer ONCE. What a pain. I had to slam it on the lip of a bucket every 1/4 gallon because it was clogged. Never again.

Tried whirlpooling with my mash paddle once.. Ineffective....

I'm not going to buy a pump and fittings just to whirlpool....

Have bagged hops. Now I am skipping that to see if hop presence is greater without.

 

[Vale71]

*shrugs* YMMV I guess. I have the same 15Ga kettle and using their Whirlpool fitting in the port directly above the drain. I only do 5 gallon batches tho, so maybe I don't have as large a volume of garbage at the end. Also as mentioned in my first post, I'm not all that particular about what goes into the fermenter.

It's probably the quantity. I work my system to nearly full capacity and have proportionally much more trub I like to leave behind. I also whirlpool with a pump actually transferring wort from the boil kettle (another 15 gal SSB BrewKettle) to the whirlpool kettle so some of the trub settles and stays in the boil kettle to begin with. Still when it's down to the last couple of liters the trub cone tends to spread out and the stupid dam is way too small to present a really effective barrier. I even reduce flow at the end to create less suction but to no avail. There's at least a copule of pints of wort I have to give up on in order not to pull trub into the fermenter. I'll try the trick with the steel wool and see if it helps hopefully without clogging up.

 

[Vale71]

The Stout unit is much larger than the SS unit:

Now that looks like it means business...

 

[Goowa]

It's probably the quantity. I work my system to nearly full capacity and have proportionally much more trub I like to leave behind. I also whirlpool with a pump actually transferring wort from the boil kettle (another 15 gal SSB BrewKettle) to the whirlpool kettle so some of the trub settles and stays in the boil kettle to begin with. Still when it's down to the last couple of liters the trub cone tends to spread out and the stupid dam is way too small to present a really effective barrier. I even reduce flow at the end to create less suction but to no avail. There's at least a copule of pints of wort I have to give up on in order not to pull trub into the fermenter. I'll try the trick with the steel wool and see if it helps hopefully without clogging up.

Yeah for sure near the end, the hot break and hops start unConing and working their way around the edges of that little wall. That's about the point when I just stop my pump and call it. The SS wool I've found is really only helpful with whole cone hops. I've managed to get a pretty good mass of them stuck on that wool while whirpooling once. Nice surprise when my pump started screaming at me.

 

[z-bob]

IMO, make a little effort to lessen the trub going into the fermenter, then RDWHAHB. It won't hurt your beer if a little gets into the fermenter.

Isn't a little trub good for the yeast? The cold break matter is mostly protein.

 

[Big Monk]

Isn't a little trub good for the yeast? The cold break matter is mostly protein.

Yeast nutrient is good for yeast too and that won't involve the "dump it all in" philosophy.

 

[Vale71]

Isn't a little trub good for the yeast? The cold break matter is mostly protein.

Unless you have a cold wort centrifuge or a coolship there is no way you won't get nearly 100% of your cold break material into the fermentor, so there's really no point in worrying about it.
Hot break and hop material are a completely different issue and have no benefits at all, even in small quantities.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Isn't a little trub good for the yeast? The cold break matter is mostly protein.

It depends...
On one hand, it has some degree of nutritional value for yeast. However, you can make up for that with a little yeast nutrient, or not at all, if you pitch a good volume of healthy, oxygenated yeast.

On the other hand, trub contains lipids that will contribute to staling your beer. Maybe you drink your beer fast enough that you won't notice it, but it simply won't have as much shelf life and/or will begin losing good flavors and picking up "old beer" flavors sooner if you leave trub in. That timeline is variable, as is an individual's ability to perceive it, so you might not even be able to tell the difference over time.
I try to keep my beer tasting fresh and bright for as long as I can.
YMMV.

 

[kh54s10]

Yeast nutrient is good for yeast too and that won't involve the "dump it all in" philosophy.

The beauty of homebrewing. There is no "one way to do it right". I have seen that a lot of people "dump it all in" and create great beers. I have seen that people take great effort to keep trub out of the fermenter and they create great beers.

IMO, trub in the fermenter is a non issue. I try to keep it out only to limit the loss of beer in the trub layer, and to make it easier to siphon without getting trub into the bottling bucket or keg.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Unless you have a cold wort centrifuge or a coolship there is no way you won't get nearly 100% of your cold break material into the fermentor, so there's really no point in worrying about it.
Hot break and hop material are a completely different issue and have no benefits at all, even in small quantities.

That's not true at all. With a little effort, you can leave behind nearly 100% of cold break without those tools. The keys are:
1: getting the clearest possible wort into the kettle from the mash (recirculating mash or vorlauf if you don't have recirculation)
2: fast chilling to promote good cold break formation
3: settling time (30 min, give or take)
4: draw from above the settled trub layer and stop transfer as soon as you start to pick up trub. This may mean leaving behind more truby wort than you are used to (though I know some will cringe at the waste - I used to).

Using those methods, and without even a whirlpool (I am installing a port this weekend though), I transfer crystal clear wort to my fermenter. ZERO cold break.

 

[Big Monk]

The beauty of homebrewing. There is no "one way to do it right". I have seen that a lot of people "dump it all in" and create great beers. I have seen that people take great effort to keep trub out of the fermenter and they create great beers.

IMO, trub in the fermenter is a non issue. I try to keep it out only to limit the loss of beer in the trub layer, and to make it easier to siphon without getting trub into the bottling bucket or keg.

Right. To each their own. I agree with that 100%.

Just trying to kill the whole notion that we should dump trub in because it’s good for yeast.

While that may be true, i’m more comfortable with accepting that it’s a pain in the butt for some people to exclude it rather than trying to justify dumping it in for other reasons, namely as a nutrient, when other ways exist to get yeast what they want without dumping hot and cold break into the fermenter.

I would never begrudge or demean someone for just admitting that one way is easier than the other.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I try to keep it out only to limit the loss of beer in the trub layer, and to make it easier to siphon without getting trub into the bottling bucket or keg.

Don't forget a cleaner yeast harvest, if you're into that sort of thing.

 

[Vale71]

Cold break particles have a size between 0,5 and 1,0 micron. Because of that:

1 - You can't measure the remaining amount of cold break with the naked eye
2- Sedimentation is really, really slow. If you only wait 30 minutes in a medium-height kettle you may have separated 3-5% of your cold break at best, and I'm probably being optimistic about it.

The only case where you can get at least 50-60% of the cold break material to sediment in a reasonable amount of time is if you're employing a coolship, because the wort level is extremely low.
With a centrifuge you can separate up to 100% but studies have shown that this might be detrimental to yeast health.
There is an outdated technique called "flotieren" which means you aerate wort like crazy and pitch 4-5 times the normal amount of yeast. The very intensive aeration (you really have to "go Jacuzzi" on that wort) will carry yeast and cold break material to the surface (hence the reference to flotation) allowing separation by transferring the wort from this intermediate vessel to the actual fermentor. I'm not aware of any homebrewer having ever tried this at home.

 

[kh54s10]

I wouldn't dump trub into the fermenter as a nutrient. It may contribute some, but I would use a true nutrient addition.

I try to limit trub, but don't get concerned if it gets into the fermenter.
I haven't noticed much difference, if any, due to the amount of trub. Though as I said I try to limit the amount going in (usually).

Some of my best beers were made in the beginning when I always "dumped it all in".

I rarely harvest yeast, so that doesn't apply to me. I make starters, then freeze 4) 20 ml vials with 5ml yeast, 5ml glycerin, and 10 ml water. I have successfully used yeast that was frozen in 2012. In fact I have a starter building with Wy1010 American Wheat on the stirplate right now. 2/23/12.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Cold break particles have a size between 0,5 and 1,0 micron. Because of that:

1 - You can't measure the remaining amount of cold break with the naked eye
2- Sedimentation is really, really slow. If you only wait 30 minutes in a medium-height kettle you may have separated 3-5% of your cold break at best, and I'm probably being optimistic about it.

So what you're saying is that the stuff that forms during chilling, that we all call "cold break" isn't actually cold break, because real cold break is invisible to the naked eye?

Or, is it more likely that individual particles may be that small, but they tend to clump together, forming the cold break at the bottom of our kettle?

Also, I, and several others I know who care to eliminate trub in the fermenter, are able to transfer crystal clear wort to the fermenter. Even at the particle size you reference, if there was a significant amount of it in the wort, it would not be crystal clear, because even though you might not be able to see individual particles, their presence would reflect light and cause haze (because they are suspended particles and not dissolved in solution). This alone indicates that clear wort is bereft of cold break.

Not trying to be argumentative, but you are saying that cold break is invisible and inseparable, and if that's true, the junk that coagulates after rapid chilling isn't "cold break". So what is it?

 

[doug293cz]

That's not true at all. With a little effort, you can leave behind nearly 100% of cold break without those tools. The keys are:
1: getting the clearest possible wort into the kettle from the mash (recirculating mash or vorlauf if you don't have recirculation)
...

What does clear wort into the BK have to do with cold break? It will reduce overall trub, but ...

Brew on

 

[Cavpilot2000]

What does clear wort into the BK have to do with cold break? It will reduce overall trub, but ...

Brew on

Nothing at all. I was speaking more globally on trub reduction, which includes cold break.
After all, this whole thread is not about cold break, it's about how to reduce or eliminate trub into the fermenter. COld break is but one element of that trub.

 

[Vale71]

At 1 micron in size it will appear cristal clear but it's not really free of particles. After all, yeast cells are 10 times larger and beer will appear realitvely clear when there are still a lot of them in suspension. There is also no clumping together of cold trub, what you see clumping together is actually hot break material. If this were not the case then large breweries would not invest large sums in cold wort centrifuges.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Most commercial breweries aren't going to tie up a vessel chilling it all at once either. Pass through heatex into FV and free up the WPK for the next turn. This either means cold break goes into fermenter (hot break and hop matter left behind) or centrifuge it out after heatex.

I've never worked somewhere large enough to centrifuge wort, only finished beer.

 

[eric19312]

My Spike kettle does a decent job leaving behind trub. The bulk of the material rests in the center lower level and I collect from the raised edge. Spike recommends whirlpooling and settling hot wort then running through heat exchanger on way to fermenter. I believe the hot break falls faster and tighter in warm wort. This of course means all the cold break goes Int the fermenter. I don’t do this, prefer to immersion chill during whirlpool. I will let the kettle rest 15-30 min after done chilling and do leave most of the break and hops behind. But most is probably 80%. I can say I watch the trub collect and gradually settle in the fermenter and it’s a slow process. Still dropping and compacting at 24 hours. If a 30 min kettle rest was good enough wouldn’t it then make sense to dump trub from a conical that soon? Does anybody do that?

 

[z-bob]

I brew good beer when I just dump everything from the kettle into the fermenter. But if I don't do something to remove the hops, I end up losing more beer than I like in the bottom of the fermenter. (the beer is still good even if all the hops go in the fermenter, the hops are just a PITA when racking) I can either filter hops out using a hops sock or spider in the kettle, or filter it out after cooling in which case I also filter out a lot of the break material too. I'm not sure that I can tell the difference in the final beer, but maybe that's because I'm brewing good beer and not great beer -- or maybe because it really doesn't matter.

 

[Dade0]

I use a large 300 micron filter. I am mostly concerned about hops in my plate chller. No issues with hops utilization due to its large size. 6" diameter and stands inside my 10 gallon pot.

 

[HTH1975]

Getting clear wort to the FV isn’t difficult. My boil kettle has a bazooka filter and I just run the wort off slowly (ball valve around half open); after having let the wort settle for around half an hour.

To be fair, I’ve run off wort that isn’t clear and the beer has been great. Some cold break is good for the fermentation.

 

[nick sekerak]

All good methods so far, now i have many things to try out.

Has anyone used the hopstopper 2.0 they look pretty neat, check this youtube video out If anyone has tried or heard any the good/bad about it please let me and the rest of us know anti trub camp members in on your comments.