The temperature of the stand has me very curious. Obviously a temp higher than 180 will extract IBUs compared to almost none below. But I wonder what the effects on aroma and flavor are. Flavor and aroma versus stand temperature
How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?
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The temperature of the stand has me very curious. Obviously a temp higher than 180 will extract IBUs compared to almost none below. But I wonder what the effects on aroma and flavor are. Flavor and aroma versus stand temperature
feinbera
Well-Known Member
This is a good question.... I pulled a hydrometer sample of my "hop-stood" IPA earlier today, and it seemed especially hazy, even after sitting in the fridge for an hour waiting for yeast to settle... but, then, the thing's only a week and a half old at this point. Anybody wanna chime in about finished beers?
Ultimately, I think it depends on exactly where on the temperature scale the cold break happens. Do the proteins "break" throughout the entire chill, or, does the magic happen in some smaller slice of the range... ideally, a little cooler than 180, so we can hop stand at a sustained temperature and still reap the benefits of a quick chill once we're done?
I brewed on a cold, windy night -- I undershot 180 with my chiller, and went from 175 all the way down to 145 during my 45-minute hop stand -- I presume this would've been horrible for the break. Next time, I'm going to try keeping it at about 180 with my burner for the duration of the stand then rapidly chilling.
Edit to say: the IPA's a bit green, but tasty, with easily-detectable citrus and evergreen hop notes, even flat, not-yet-dry-hopped, and through a stuffy nose.
Finished beers are clear with this technique. I typically use WLP001 or WLP090, 3-4 weeks in the primary, no cold crash or gelatin. I'm not saying that extra hop oils are not making it into your beer and giving minor haze contributions. But my thought is that other factors are affecting clarity on a much more substantial level. Careful racking, time, patience, and gravity being at the top of the list for having a clear beer.
I do both. Traditional flameout addition from 212-170 F, with a quick chill. Followed by a slow cooling, post-boil 160-60 F hopstand during the course of 20-60 minutes. You will get the best hop character you ever had in an AIPA with a huge focus on flameout, hopstand, and dryhop.
I do both. Traditional flameout addition from 212-170 F, with a quick chill. Followed by a slow cooling, post-boil 160-60 F hopstand during the course of 20-60 minutes. You will get the best hop character you ever had in an AIPA with a huge focus on flameout, hopstand, and dryhop.
What ratio do you use? FO_hot - FO_cold - Dry Hop? I'm making an IPA this weekend and I had planned on 1 ounce traditional bittering, 3 oz FO (under 180) and 3 oz DH.
Depends on the OG and overall recipe design/desires.
For something fairly intoxicating with a clean grist and dry finish at roughly 1.070 OG at 5.5 gallons:
1- Add the majority of your desired IBUs early
2- Perhaps a supplemental middle addition to round the bitterness and offer a different character (optional)
3- About 2 oz. at flameout + another 2 oz. at warm hopstand (or 4 oz. at warm hopstand with no direct flameout)
4- Dryhop at rate of 0.8 to 1.0 oz. dryhops per gallon of beer
With a direct flameout addition, the wort is above 200 F. If you add hops at this point, they are no longer violently boiling away the delicate hop oils, but they are still extracting IBUs all the way down to about 175 F.
You have the option to bitter slightly less early on and gain more IBUs from a long direct flameout whirlpool... Or, you could bitter as intended early on and simply toss all of your aroma hops in when the wort is about 165 F, all the way down to pitch temps during a slow cool.
The reason I am shying away from 20-5 minute additions altogether has to do with being a chef and realizing more and more that when you add delicate herbs with a ton of aromatic oils during these time frames, you are just boiling away the character and flavor. Best to add them as late as possible for better quality of flavoraroma.
For something fairly intoxicating with a clean grist and dry finish at roughly 1.070 OG at 5.5 gallons:
1- Add the majority of your desired IBUs early
2- Perhaps a supplemental middle addition to round the bitterness and offer a different character (optional)
3- About 2 oz. at flameout + another 2 oz. at warm hopstand (or 4 oz. at warm hopstand with no direct flameout)
4- Dryhop at rate of 0.8 to 1.0 oz. dryhops per gallon of beer
With a direct flameout addition, the wort is above 200 F. If you add hops at this point, they are no longer violently boiling away the delicate hop oils, but they are still extracting IBUs all the way down to about 175 F.
You have the option to bitter slightly less early on and gain more IBUs from a long direct flameout whirlpool... Or, you could bitter as intended early on and simply toss all of your aroma hops in when the wort is about 165 F, all the way down to pitch temps during a slow cool.
The reason I am shying away from 20-5 minute additions altogether has to do with being a chef and realizing more and more that when you add delicate herbs with a ton of aromatic oils during these time frames, you are just boiling away the character and flavor. Best to add them as late as possible for better quality of flavoraroma.
JeffoC6
Well-Known Member
I really like your post, Bob. Here's what I'm planning on doing with my next batch (1-gallon IPA):
Cascade- 0.30 oz @ 60 min.
Cascade- 0.10 oz @ flameout
Amarillo- 0.10 oz @ flameout
Cool wort to 170 in an ice bath.
Remove from ice bath and add:
Cascade- 0.30 oz
Amarillo- 0.30 oz
Stir and cover with sanitized kettle lid and let steep for 45 minutes.
After 45 minutes, put back into ice bath and cool down to 70 degrees and pitch my yeast.
After FG is reached, dry hopping with .30 oz Cascade and .30 oz of Amarillo.
What are your thoughts on this schedule?
If you're wondering, I'm using 2 lb 2-Row, .2 lb Vienna, .1 lb Carapils, and .1 lb Crystal 60L.
My SG is 1.061 and my FG is 1.017
Using S-05
Mashing at 150
Thoughts?
Cascade- 0.30 oz @ 60 min.
Cascade- 0.10 oz @ flameout
Amarillo- 0.10 oz @ flameout
Cool wort to 170 in an ice bath.
Remove from ice bath and add:
Cascade- 0.30 oz
Amarillo- 0.30 oz
Stir and cover with sanitized kettle lid and let steep for 45 minutes.
After 45 minutes, put back into ice bath and cool down to 70 degrees and pitch my yeast.
After FG is reached, dry hopping with .30 oz Cascade and .30 oz of Amarillo.
What are your thoughts on this schedule?
If you're wondering, I'm using 2 lb 2-Row, .2 lb Vienna, .1 lb Carapils, and .1 lb Crystal 60L.
My SG is 1.061 and my FG is 1.017
Using S-05
Mashing at 150
Thoughts?
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Jeff, I'm no pro on 1-gallon batches, but here goes...
1- Mash your grain. Do not simply steep it.
2- Reduce the mash time and boil time to 40 minutes each.
3- Start with roughly 1.7 gallons of total wort for the boil (after the mash) depending on your boiloff rate
Shoot for about 60 IBUs.
0.50 oz. Cascade 45 min
0.25 oz. Cascade warm 20 min post-boil hopstand (or 0.15 oz. each at direct flameout and warm hopstand)
0.25 oz. Amarillo warm 20 min post-boil hopstand (or 0.15 oz. each at direct flameout and warm hopstand)
0.50 oz. Cascade 5-7 day dryhop
0.50 oz. Amarillo 5-7 day dryhop
Cool to 60 degrees, oxygenate well, and pitch your yeast.
Your FG should be 1.014, possibly lower if you follow those steps, mash at 150, pitch enough cells of US-05, ferment in the low to mid 60s, raising slightly after the first week and a half to 68 F for the dryhop. I would ferment this in a 1.5 gallon container, to avoid the need for a blowoff tube. Afterward, you can rack to a 1 gallon secondary and add the pellet dryhops.
1- Mash your grain. Do not simply steep it.
2- Reduce the mash time and boil time to 40 minutes each.
3- Start with roughly 1.7 gallons of total wort for the boil (after the mash) depending on your boiloff rate
Shoot for about 60 IBUs.
0.50 oz. Cascade 45 min
0.25 oz. Cascade warm 20 min post-boil hopstand (or 0.15 oz. each at direct flameout and warm hopstand)
0.25 oz. Amarillo warm 20 min post-boil hopstand (or 0.15 oz. each at direct flameout and warm hopstand)
0.50 oz. Cascade 5-7 day dryhop
0.50 oz. Amarillo 5-7 day dryhop
Cool to 60 degrees, oxygenate well, and pitch your yeast.
Your FG should be 1.014, possibly lower if you follow those steps, mash at 150, pitch enough cells of US-05, ferment in the low to mid 60s, raising slightly after the first week and a half to 68 F for the dryhop. I would ferment this in a 1.5 gallon container, to avoid the need for a blowoff tube. Afterward, you can rack to a 1 gallon secondary and add the pellet dryhops.
Is there a rule of thumb for the utilization percent of IBUs in a stand at around 190? Makes me wonder if I could get all of my IBUs from the stand if I throw in enough 
ocluke
Well-Known Member
Is there a rule of thumb for the utilization percent of IBUs in a stand at around 190? Makes me wonder if I could get all of my IBUs from the stand if I throw in enough
The short answer to your question is "no." There is no rule of thumb for bitterness calculations for post flameout additions (or even late boil additions that sit around without a quick post flameout temperature reduction).
For beers that receive a large amount of their hop schedule at the end of or after the boil, IBUs are going to be an unhelpful calculation for how bitter the beer is perceived to be. Bitterness comes from isomerized alpha-acids as we all know, and for those who practice heavy 0 minute and hop stand/whirlpool additions can attest to, isomerization of alpha acids occurs post flameout, even though the equations in the software we all use do not factor for it. In addition to iso-alpha acids, bitterness also comes from humulinones and polyphenols, and potentially other hop and non-hop derived compounds in the beer.
I think this is a great aspect of brewing beer. It falls between an art and a science - it's more of a discipline - and there is a lot of room for creative expression based on variations in practices and equipment.
JeffoC6
Well-Known Member
Just wanted to let everyone know who may be reading this thread that I HIGHLY recommend this technique. See my post #126 in this thread. I followed exactly this hope schedule and I just pitched my yeast. I tasted the hydrometer sample and it way more of a hop kick then I've ever had on any of my past IPA's. The bitterness was wonderful, and while it was sweet (like wort is) it had an underlying hop bitterness. I can't wait till this ferments down and I dry hop the heck out of it. I really think this technique is something I'll use every time moving forward.
Please report back once it's finished up. I also tried a similar technique and have an IPA in the fermenter currently. Only hop additions were at 60, 30, and a huge flameout addition when the wort dropped below 150. Planning on dryhopping the hell out of it, too.
JeffoC6
Well-Known Member
Will do. She's fermenting now. I'll probably take a gravity reading in about 8 more days, whereupon I will sample and let everyone know my results thusfar.
KaSaBiS
Well-Known Member
I did a FWH, 15, 5,0 and chilled below 170 and threw another 2 oz in my 10g batch. Needless to say everyone floated my keg within 20 days of kegging. To add in comp. my feed back was the hops were not pronounced enough. 40 IBU calculated for a pale.
I will add that of 4 entries, 2 got some metals, and neither were the Pale. Yet amongst my friends, that was the killed the fastest.
I noticed a fairly dense "dry hop" haze from this method, w/o dryhopping. although others say they did not notice a haze from this method
feinbera
Well-Known Member
Quick update on my 45-minute hop-stood IPA .... it's super chill-hazy.
I chilled to 175, chucked in 1.5 oz of a Citra/Cascade combo, and stood for 45 minutes, in which time, it got down to about 140.
In order to isolate the effects of the hop stand, I set aside a half-gallon of the beer in a clear glass growler, and, in the two weeks since I racked out of primary, it had been clearing up nicely; I could clearly see my hand through the beer, etc. That is, until I threw it in the fridge for a couple days of cold-crashing, at which point, it became hazier than it was when I racked it, and has stayed that way for about 48 hours now.
I hopefully bottle today; I'll let y'all know how it tastes at the end of the month!
(Quick edit, just to say, all my hydrometer samples have smelled and tasted great; this is shaping up to be my best IPA. My only issue with this technique is cosmetic, and I'm optimistic that the cosmetic issue is fixable)
I chilled to 175, chucked in 1.5 oz of a Citra/Cascade combo, and stood for 45 minutes, in which time, it got down to about 140.
In order to isolate the effects of the hop stand, I set aside a half-gallon of the beer in a clear glass growler, and, in the two weeks since I racked out of primary, it had been clearing up nicely; I could clearly see my hand through the beer, etc. That is, until I threw it in the fridge for a couple days of cold-crashing, at which point, it became hazier than it was when I racked it, and has stayed that way for about 48 hours now.
I hopefully bottle today; I'll let y'all know how it tastes at the end of the month!
(Quick edit, just to say, all my hydrometer samples have smelled and tasted great; this is shaping up to be my best IPA. My only issue with this technique is cosmetic, and I'm optimistic that the cosmetic issue is fixable)
I follow some variation of this schedule for my IPAs:
Quick-Chill: Directly after boil down to 170 F during the course of 15 minutes, followed by...
Hopstand: 165-58 F whirlpool, slow-chill during the course of 45-60 minutes. Let the bagged hopstand hops drip and then give the bag a gentle squeeze. Remove and discard the bagged hopstand hops.
Primary: 10-24 days at 60-66 F, rising slowly as the days increase.
Secondary (or Primary): 7-14 days @ 66-68 F. Add the dryhop during the last 7-10 days.
Bottles: 2.5 weeks at 68-72 F.
Refrigerator: 1-2 weeks promotes clearing and refines flavor with little to no negative impact on aroma.
My IPAs are usually hazy directly after bottling. However, give them a week or two in the refrigerator and they are crystal clear.
I do not typically rack to secondary, cold crash, or use gelatin either. I simply filter/bag my hops, use whirlfloc, and let gravity and patience do the work for me.
Quick-Chill: Directly after boil down to 170 F during the course of 15 minutes, followed by...
Hopstand: 165-58 F whirlpool, slow-chill during the course of 45-60 minutes. Let the bagged hopstand hops drip and then give the bag a gentle squeeze. Remove and discard the bagged hopstand hops.
Primary: 10-24 days at 60-66 F, rising slowly as the days increase.
Secondary (or Primary): 7-14 days @ 66-68 F. Add the dryhop during the last 7-10 days.
Bottles: 2.5 weeks at 68-72 F.
Refrigerator: 1-2 weeks promotes clearing and refines flavor with little to no negative impact on aroma.
My IPAs are usually hazy directly after bottling. However, give them a week or two in the refrigerator and they are crystal clear.
I do not typically rack to secondary, cold crash, or use gelatin either. I simply filter/bag my hops, use whirlfloc, and let gravity and patience do the work for me.
I made an IPA this past weekend.
Using the Zombie Dust malt bill, I added .5 oz each of Chinook, Amaraillo, Simcoe, and Citra above 180 for 30 minutes and then the same amounts for 30 more under 180 (I think it was 165). I didn't add any bittering hops. I'm going to dry hop with the same hops, but I might be flexible when I taste it on dry hop. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Using the Zombie Dust malt bill, I added .5 oz each of Chinook, Amaraillo, Simcoe, and Citra above 180 for 30 minutes and then the same amounts for 30 more under 180 (I think it was 165). I didn't add any bittering hops. I'm going to dry hop with the same hops, but I might be flexible when I taste it on dry hop. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
NewDecadeBrewery
Well-Known Member
TheHairyHop said:Is there a rule of thumb for the utilization percent of IBUs in a stand at around 190? Makes me wonder if I could get all of my IBUs from the stand if I throw in enough
AFAIK I have heard three brewers discuss this. Matt from Firestone, the brewer from Pizza Port Carlsbad, and Jamil, all on Jamil's radio show. The consensus seemed to be a 30 minute hop stand at flameout temps gave about the equivalent of a 20 minute boil addition. Jamil discusses how on developing one of his Heretic recipes he overshot his IBU's per the recipe which was confirmed by a lab with just a flameout steep and no other additions.
I usually do a 30 minute steep at flameout and punch it in the calculator as a 20 minute addition. My flavor aroma has been decidedly "better" since I have been doing this. The bittering has also been pleasant. I usually brew an APA this way. My last beer the wort was down to 190 after thirty minutes. Then I rapidly chill. I cover with foil during the stand. The beers come out clear btw and I usually secondary but sometimes only for a few days or so.
wobdee
Junior Member
NewDecadeBrewery said:
This is interesting. My last APA seemed a little too bitter even though I didn't use a lot of bittering hops but had a huge FO addition. Looks like I have some more experimenting to do.
kal
Well-Known Member
Interesting discussion.
I want to do an experiment with a ~1.050 APA and *only* add hops with a hop stand at flameout. No hops added during the boil at all.
I believe you can never have enoug flavour/aroma (the whole point of the experiment) but I don't want to overdo the bitterness.
I plan on add the hops immediately at flameout (212F) and then steeping for ~80 minutes with the lid off to allow the wort to start cool somewhat, then chill fast with a CFC.
I'm confused which estimate to use: Assume the IBUs is like 10% of a regular 60 min boil? Or assume it's like a 20 min addition? The estimates vary by a factor of 5:
(1) Assuming 10% of 60 min boil: 24 IBU
(2) Assuming 20 minute addition: 132 IBU
24 IBU would probably be ok (given the massive flavour/aroma which I'm going after) but if 132 IBU is more accurate then it's way too high and I need to cut the hops to 1/4 the original amount or possibly cool the wort first before adding the flameout hops. (?)
This'll be a 12 gallon batch (post boil) and probably a full pound of hops (Centennial, Cascade, Chinook, Citra). Then dry hopped with 2 oz.
Looking for opinions. Thanks!
Kal
I want to do an experiment with a ~1.050 APA and *only* add hops with a hop stand at flameout. No hops added during the boil at all.
I believe you can never have enoug flavour/aroma (the whole point of the experiment) but I don't want to overdo the bitterness.
I plan on add the hops immediately at flameout (212F) and then steeping for ~80 minutes with the lid off to allow the wort to start cool somewhat, then chill fast with a CFC.
I'm confused which estimate to use: Assume the IBUs is like 10% of a regular 60 min boil? Or assume it's like a 20 min addition? The estimates vary by a factor of 5:
(1) Assuming 10% of 60 min boil: 24 IBU
(2) Assuming 20 minute addition: 132 IBU
24 IBU would probably be ok (given the massive flavour/aroma which I'm going after) but if 132 IBU is more accurate then it's way too high and I need to cut the hops to 1/4 the original amount or possibly cool the wort first before adding the flameout hops. (?)
This'll be a 12 gallon batch (post boil) and probably a full pound of hops (Centennial, Cascade, Chinook, Citra). Then dry hopped with 2 oz.
Looking for opinions. Thanks!
Kal
ocluke
Well-Known Member
I'm all for experiments, so if you do this as you describe, I'd be interesting in hearing back about the results.
I have never steeped for 80 minutes with a 0 minute addition, but I have made beers with only a combination of post boil additions (0 minute, whirlpool and dry hops), and I can confidently say that those beers have all of the bitterness needed to satisfy a hop-craved palate. Just the sheer volume of hops being used will add enough polyphenols (tannins) to contribute a considerable amount of non-IBU bitterness. Even though lab equipment would measure a low iso-alpha acid (IBU) content, a sensory panel would rate the beer higher in terms of bitterness and astringency.
Each brewing system is different, but it would be worth knowing how long your hops are steeping at a temperature in which the the alpha acids are being isomerized and the essential oils are volatilizing. If it takes 40 minutes for your boil kettle to drop under 180 degrees, you very well may have volatilized the majority of essential oils in the hops. Still an interesting experiment, but maybe not what you are targeting for this beer? If you want to achieve isomerization, I would add at 0 minutes; if you are looking for essential oil extraction (but not volatilization), I would bring the temperature down to 180 before steeping, or break up your post boil additions into 0 minute and sub-180 degree aroma steep additions.
One other point to note, your dry hop addition is quite small (0.20 oz/gal). Is that because you are primarily interested in knowing what a 0 minute addition contributes in terms of aroma, or is it something else? You mention that you want a massive aroma in this beer. If so, I'd consider substantially upping your dry hop addition. You might not be happy with the aroma achieved at a rate of 0.20 oz/gal.
kal
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the comments. My "gut" reaction is to reduce the wort to 180F before adding hop stand hops. I don't want too much bitterness but do want an abundance of flavour/aroma.
Kal
Good point. It probably needs to go up. I'm going by what I typically use for dry hopping an APA (about 1 oz per 5-6 gallons). I think it probably best to play it bit by ear and see how the beer turns out after fermentation. Dry hopping's a whole separate issue...
Kal
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
tried this technique once with an IPL using normal late additions and then a nice big 30min hopstand once the wort cooled below 160° - really noticed a brighter and longer lasting flavor/aroma
brewing a galaxy APA this weekend and trying no additions during the actual boil
.75oz FWH
1oz flameout - 30min stand
1oz 30min hop stand when wort is around 160°
1.25oz dryhop in keg
brewing a galaxy APA this weekend and trying no additions during the actual boil
.75oz FWH
1oz flameout - 30min stand
1oz 30min hop stand when wort is around 160°
1.25oz dryhop in keg
kal
Well-Known Member
Please do post back and let us know how it goes and what the resultant beer tastes like.
What your post boil size on this? 5 gallons?
Kal
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
5.25 gal into the fermenter
wobdee
Junior Member
I'm going to brew a 2.5 gal IPA tomorrow and for experiment sake ill do no boil hops and just use 1oz each of Simcoe/Citra at Flame out for 30 min and also dry hop the same amount.
JeffoC6
Well-Known Member
Just an update on this brew (see post #126).
1 gallon batch
Cascade- 0.30 oz @ 60 min.
Cascade- 0.10 oz @ flameout
Amarillo- 0.10 oz @ flameout
Cool wort to 170 in an ice bath.
Remove from ice bath and add:
Cascade- 0.30 oz
Amarillo- 0.30 ozI
achieved FG tonight and racked to a secondary to add my dry hops. I took a little sample and it had a GREAT hop bitterness and aroma (before I even added the dryhops). I'm going to dryhop for 7 days, then bottle. Will continue to update as I move forward.
HomebrewMTB
Well-Known Member
kal said:
Kal, there was a Basic Brewing podcast where a guy did a similar experiment. He added ~2 lbs of Nelson Sauvin hops to a ~5 gallon batch all at the end of the boil with no other additions. The beer ended up testing at 80 IBU. He called it "Full Nelson". It sounded delicious! You might search for that episode before you try it.
kal
Well-Known Member
Cool. Thanks for posting. I'll try to find it. Need to know if he cooled a bit first and how long he steeped for. Nelson Sauvin's a fairly high AA% hop. If it was directly after boil (no cooling) and a long steep I'm surprised it didn't come out higher than 80 IBU though I suppose that's up near the supposed max measured (saturation) amount of ~100 IBU.
Do you remember roughly when it was broadcast? A recent one maybe or a few years ago? I'm looking through a bunch of them now and there are quite a few. My "Google-foo" isn't strong this morning.
EDIT: Found it. It's here:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2012
April 12, 2012 - Hop Bursting IBU Test
Home Brewer Kim Odland from Norway brewed a beer with an enormous amount of hops added at the end of the boil. Brad Sturgeon from Monmouth College puts it through his lab to look at its IBUs.
Kal
