How to attach Auber RTD sensor in my Blichmann pots?

[conpewter]

Yup, metal on metal is not good, but take a look at the picture I posted above from the Blichmann manual on how it works. It's not metal on metal:

Maybe it's just me then but I really like the way Blichmann does it as it makes sure you don't overtighter the nut. You could throw an extra washer on the inside but I don't think it's probably needed.

BTW, I emailed John Blichmann last night and I already had an email this morning indicating that he'd update the next print run of their Boilermaker and Brewmometer manuals to include more labels like my Figure 2 above (to make it clearer for people what's what). I've always been impressed with their service. 5 thumbs up!

Kal

A couple thoughts.

I like the above idea not only because it keeps you from squishing the O-ring but also because you can crank down on it and make it really sturdy (My ball valve on the keg is a bit wobbly, but it seals...)

Also Yuri suggested to go with the metric most likely because you don't want NPT, you want a straight threaded (not pipe thread). That way you can screw the nut all the way on to get it tight enough to seal.

Edit: I'm not sure if that bushing will work, it will need to screw down far enough to pull the O-ring taught.

Also I wouldn't use any pipe tape, you arn't making the seal on the pipe threads, it is all up to the O-ring.

 

[kal]

I like the above idea not only because it keeps you from squishing the O-ring but also because you can crank down on it and make it really sturdy (My ball valve on the keg is a bit wobbly, but it seals...)

I never thought of that as being a benefit but you're absolutely right. I'll have to see if I can find larger washers for my setup to do this for all my valves and other weldless fittings.

Also Yuri suggested to go with the metric most likely because you don't want NPT, you want a straight threaded (not pipe thread). That way you can screw the nut all the way on to get it tight enough to seal.

Good point.

So I've learnt a few things after looking up NPT on Wikipedia.

NPT (National pipe tread) is tapered by definition. This would most definitely be the reason why you want straight thread if you going through a bulkhead and using a nut to attach. But to go into a NPT bushing you'd use an NPT probe I would think.

Slowly getting clearer and clearer. I'm an electrical engineer, not mechanical.

Edit: I'm not sure if that bushing will work, it will need to screw down far enough to pull the O-ring taught.

Also I wouldn't use any pipe tape, you arn't making the seal on the pipe threads, it is all up to the O-ring.

O-ring? I was referring to Justin's suggestion to do the following:

No o-ring required right? Just screw the 1/4" NPT temp probe into the 1/4" NPT bushing. No?

Kal

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

As far as the bushing goes, just screw it in. I would use pipe tape and not an o-ring.

Thios straight thread stuff is interesting.... I will have to look into it more.

 

[conpewter]

No o-ring required right? Just screw the 1/4" NPT temp probe into the 1/4" NPT bushing. No?

Kal

Right I was still thinking of having it in the wall of the keg/bulkhead fitting (how I think mine will be), you are correct on using the NPT bushing with plenty of pipe tape.

 

[BrewBeemer]

(the washer doesn't compress the o-ring). It would seem they do it this way to ensure that the o-ring doesn't get squashed by someone over-tightening the nut on the inside. I think they're trying to patent the idea too.

Kal

I really doubt this is something new and requires a patent on with those rubber coated washers, this was applied to the fuel petcocks on british motorcycles especially Nortons back in the 60's, and way before this is nothing new here.
Questions I have is there a 1/2" threaded RTD or probe available? just order a 1/2" rubber coated washer and be done with it? I still would add a thin nylon washer preventing scoring up the inside surface of that new pot if it were mine. If the 1/2" threaded probe is not available and that probe you have is 1/4" or a metric thread this is what I would do. Take some stainless stock and thread the ID to match the probes thread, thread the OD to 1/2-13 unless you want fine thread. Cut this threaded sleeve the same length as the probe thread minus the thickness of the stainless washer you might have to add, the washer ID should match the original probes thread diameter then screw on the sleeve. I bet across the flats of the 1/4" probe this space is about as wide as the 1/2" hole already or less. Use silicone sealer on the threads inside this sleeve as liquid will leak up the sleeves threads plus I would use a fiber washer remember those red washers used on carbs and fuel line connections? Available at any "GOOD AUTOMOTIVE PARTS STORE". Add some silicone on the fiber washer plus the sleeve OD, after inserting into the pot before adding a thin nylon washer and nut. You can crank down on the nut rather tight. Wipe off excess silicone, let air it dry overnight and be done with. Just ideas unless as I said before there is a 1/2" probe available? Adam should be able to chime in on what's available on different available probes unless you look on line yourself.....Carl.........

 

[kal]

I really doubt this is something new and requires a patent on with those rubber coated washers, this was applied to the fuel petcocks on british motorcycles especially Nortons back in the 60's, and way before this is nothing new here.

Just quoting Blichmann. Don't shoot the messenger.

Questions I have is there a 1/2" threaded RTD or probe available?

Not that I've seen. Otherwise that would be an easy solution.

If the 1/2" threaded probe is not available and that probe you have is 1/4" or a metric thread this is what I would do. Take some stainless stock and thread the ID to match the probes thread, thread the OD to 1/2-13 unless you want fine thread. Cut this threaded sleeve the same length as the probe thread minus the thickness of the stainless washer you might have to add, the washer ID should match the original probes thread diameter then screw on the sleeve. I bet across the flats of the 1/4" probe this space is about as wide as the 1/2" hole already or less. Use silicone sealer on the threads inside this sleeve as liquid will leak up the sleeves threads plus I would use a fiber washer remember those red washers used on carbs and fuel line connections? Available at any "GOOD AUTOMOTIVE PARTS STORE". Add some silicone on the fiber washer plus the sleeve OD, after inserting into the pot before adding a thin nylon washer and nut. You can crank down on the nut rather tight. Wipe off excess silicone, let air it dry overnight and be done with. Just ideas unless as I said before there is a 1/2" probe available? Adam should be able to chime in on what's available on different available probes unless you look on line yourself.....Carl.........

So instead of spending $30 on a new probe and $2 on a bushing, spend $10-20+ on some stainless stock and other supplies and get it machined exactly right? Sorry, but this is an insane amount of work and running around to save about $5-10 assuming I can get the machining done for free. I don't have the means to machine stainless nor do I want to learn or figure out how to do it to save $5. Sorry Carl!

Kal

 

[kal]

A funny thing happened to me on the way to the brewery ...

Auberins sent me three 1/4" NPT temp probes instead of the three M16x1.5 I had requested so this actually works out pretty well. I can use two with standard 1/4" to 1/2" bushings in the plumbing. Easy as it's all standard.

For the Brew Kettle I'd like to use the existing 1/2" diameter hole that's there for the Blichmann analog Brewmometer. I'd prefer to not make the hole larger in case I want to undo what I've done.

So do I put in a M16x1.5 or 1/4" NPT RTD temp probe from Auberins? The 1/4" NPT probes are just a little too big as is. I'm assuming M16 is slightly larger still (16mm is 0.6299").

So without making the hole bigger, can I keep my 1/4" NPT probe and put in some sort of bulkhead that'll fit in a 1/2" diameter hole? Can't seem to find anything like that. I don't want to machine anything. Click and buy.

Kal

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Question: The hole for the Blichmann thermometer is 1/2" diameter? That is tiny!

In your OP you list the metric thread as an M16. Which is it?

McMaster # 48805K252 is an adapter from 1/4" FPT to 1/8" MPT but I doubt the probe will fit through a 1/8" hole.....

:EDIT:
Here is the adapter from McMaster

 

[BrewBeemer]

I'm confused about your confusion over his confusion.

Now that about covers it all, that's worth a +10 in points reply.
If ya can't laugh you'll cry KAL.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Just quoting Blichmann. Don't shoot the messenger.


Not that I've seen. Otherwise that would be an easy solution.


So instead of spending $30 on a new probe and $2 on a bushing, spend $10-20+ on some stainless stock and other supplies and get it machined exactly right? Sorry, but this is an insane amount of work and running around to save about $5-10 assuming I can get the machining done for free. I don't have the means to machine stainless nor do I want to learn or figure out how to do it to save $5. Sorry Carl!

Kal

My stock be it aluminum, brass, copper, steel, stainless is within 20' of the lathe no running around in my case or material costs. To get someone to machine for free that would have to be a family member as time and machinery like a lathe are not a cheap investment tool especially a American made lathe not one of those Harbor Freight quality units. As far as making the valve more stable with less flexing of the pot at the valve I would add a stainless fender washer on the inside of the pot then the nut this would also prevent any scoring from the nut turning against the pot plus stiffen up the valve when your pulling on the lever. I would slightly bow the washer to the radius of the pot before assembly.
Hell by the time you get squared away a stout will of been done fermenting there boss. I must see problems and take care of them in a different way thinking mechanically vs a on paper person, sorry Kal I tried with ideas on what I would do to solve your problem with a few ideas. This makes me believe setting up and operating a Bridgeport mill or lathe may be beyond the scope of your background training. I was raised differently I guess at a very young age, built my own C class (30 cu/in mono hull racing motors from stock Mark 30H Mercury motors with quickies as my dad would not show me more than once how to do things or set up the mill more than once back when I was 15. I set up and modified my own pistons and porting without his outboard racing experience help years ago. I was so damn pissed at him back then but respected what he did to me later in life that was thinking things out on my own. The best reward I got was championship that year on my own motor build. Dad called it hands on you'll learn faster that way failures included. Yup had failures exploded a motor that same year my fault and dad did not help prevent this future doomed motor failure I had to think on my own what went wrong.

Question Kal;
do they have the same disconnect style fittings you have pictured but in TC probes instead of RTD's? The BCS 460 controller needs 10K ohm resistance probes this means the RTD probe will not match the 460 controller a totally different resistance operating range.
I like that removable cable feature for the probes you have making it handy to remove or transport the keggkes.
Don't forget to check your local marine supply store for stainless parts. I'll purchase items 15 different times for other projects there before one is used for marine use. A good supply source in stainless hardware just expensive.

 

[kal]

Question: The hole for the Blichmann thermometer is 1/2" diameter? That is tiny!

Yup. That's what it is. The Brewmmeter shaft is 1/2-20 UNF thread (I asked).

In your OP you list the metric thread as an M16. Which is it?

Oops - sorry about that. Fixed. It's M16. That makes a lot more sense as M16 is a regular size.

McMaster # 48805K252 is an adapter from 1/4" FPT to 1/8" MPT but I doubt the probe will fit through a 1/8" hole.....

Is there any way to figure out how big that hole in the adapter actually is (whithout buying it of course)? I know that the inch sizes of NPT stuff is the pipe size but that pipe size isn't actually, well, the size of the pipe! (Ex: 1/8" NPT pipe has an OD of 0.405" not 0.125). I'm sure this makes logical sense somwhere.

The probe on both the 1/4" NPT and M16x1.5 probes is 6mm in diameter (just a smidgen under 1/4").

I'd probably want a metric thread adapter anyway so that the smaller thread inside the pot is not tapered anyway and McMaster doesn't make metric adapters, only NPT, BSPT, UNF.

do they have the same disconnect style fittings you have pictured but in TC probes instead of RTD's?

Yes, they have a TC probe too with a disconnect, along with the two RTD's listed in the original post. You can see what they sell on two pages:

RTD: http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=15
Thermo: http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3

The BCS 460 controller needs 10K ohm resistance probes this means the RTD probe will not match the 460 controller a totally different resistance operating range.

The PIDs I'm using support dozens of sensor types. Doesn't seem to be an issue.

I like that removable cable feature for the probes you have making it handy to remove or transport the keggkes.

Me too - it's the main reason why I want to use them. The only issue is that the wires are very small and seems reasonably fragile so I'm going to add some braided sleeve around the thin wires and some sort of steel cable inside too with a bunch of shrink wrap to ensure that I don't end up breaking one of the wires over time.

Thanks!

Kal

 

[Joust]

I'll trade you my m16 probe for one of your 1/4" NPT probes. makes no diff to me.

A funny thing happened to me on the way to the brewery ...

Auberins sent me three 1/4" NPT temp probes instead of the three M16x1.5 I had requested so this actually works out pretty well. I can use two with standard 1/4" to 1/2" bushings in the plumbing. Easy as it's all standard.

For the Brew Kettle I'd like to use the existing 1/2" diameter hole that's there for the Blichmann analog Brewmometer. I'd prefer to not make the hole larger in case I want to undo what I've done.

So do I put in a M16x1.5 or 1/4" NPT RTD temp probe from Auberins? The 1/4" NPT probes are just a little too big as is. I'm assuming M16 is slightly larger still (16mm is 0.6299").

So without making the hole bigger, can I keep my 1/4" NPT probe and put in some sort of bulkhead that'll fit in a 1/2" diameter hole? Can't seem to find anything like that. I don't want to machine anything. Click and buy.

Kal

 

[kal]

I'll trade you my m16 probe for one of your 1/4" NPT probes. makes no diff to me.

Thanks Barry! Glad to know I have options. What I don't seem to have an option for is to put in the boil kettle using the existing 1/2" dia hole. I should just use a 100 ohm resistor on the pid and just use the existing Blichmann Brewmometer. All this work just so that I don't have a boil kettle temp reading fixed at 72F. Sheesh. Seems kinda silly.

Kal

 

[Joust]

i like to be "in the know"
it seems that M16 is 0.638 inch hole size required.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Kal,

I think you need to invest in a dremel. That would be by far the easiest fix for this. Or a step bit, one of the two.

 

[kal]

Kal,

I think you need to invest in a dremel. That would be by far the easiest fix for this. Or a step bit, one of the two.

I have both. A fix for what exactly? (Remember that I'd prefer to re-use the 1/2" dia whole in the Blichmann pot for a temp sensor in the BK).

Kal

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I was just referring to expanding the hole slightly. I know it isn't exactly what you want, but it may look better that way than it would if you have to use a weird adapter... ??? Who knows. This is an interesting problem you have found though

 

[kal]

Yup. Not really much of a problem since most of the temp sensors will go in the plumbing. The BK temp sensor is a "just because" addition. It isn't even needed!

I think I'll just build up everything and see how much it bugs me to not have the BK temp displayed digitally.

Kal

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

ooohhhohoohohho... what about this!

Could you tap through the hole so that the RTD would thread directly into the pot?

 

[kal]

Slightly off topic, but for those that are curious: While the probes from Auberins come with really handy detachable heads (at the kettle), the 3-wire teflon coated conductor cables don't look like they'd stand up a lot of abuse over time:

I'm going to likely run them through some sort of narrow diameter hose wrapped in stainless braid to give it a nice finish and some protection.

Stainless braid:

The ends will then be shrink wrapped to avoid fraying.

Note: Stainless braid is expensive. McMaster has tinned copper braid for about 1/2 the cost ($1/foot for 1/4" dia) that I may use instead.

Kal

 

[kal]

ooohhhohoohohho... what about this!

Could you tap through the hole so that the RTD would thread directly into the pot?

You mean so that you don't need a nut at all on the inside? The Blichmann Boilermaker walls are only 18ga. That's pretty thin. There's not enough for the RTD's threads to hang on to.

Kal

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

hmmmm..... well maybe that would still be an easy and unintrusive mod?

That would have been cool if you could have threaded it directly into the pot.

 

[kal]

Yup. You never know, I may end up just getting some bulkheads welded in. For starters I want to limit the number of holes I put in this thing to ones I *know* I'll never move.

Kal

 

[BrewBeemer]

Just quoting Blichmann. Don't shoot the messenger.


Not that I've seen. Otherwise that would be an easy solution.


So instead of spending $30 on a new probe and $2 on a bushing, spend $10-20+ on some stainless stock and other supplies and get it machined exactly right? Sorry, but this is an insane amount of work and running around to save about $5-10 assuming I can get the machining done for free. I don't have the means to machine stainless nor do I want to learn or figure out how to do it to save $5. Sorry Carl!

Kal

That there is the difference between me and you. For one thing I do not have to "spend $10-20+ on some stainless stock and other supplies and get it machines exactly right?" No I just walk 20' away from my lathe in my materials stock supply that is seperated in copper, brass, aluminum, steel and stainless and take what I need for the project to fit my finished size. A little 15 minute job on the lathe to make a adapter fitting, tap, thread then parting tool cut off and debur. I'm a doer and make parts that are not available problem solved.
I invested my money over the years purchasing tools like a lathe, Tig, Mig, Plasma cutter Bridgeport mill, press for personal hobby use and know how to use them. When a special tool is needed like for rebuilding a BMW LS differential I can machine and make the needed special tools like the factory use. A machine shop background has come in handy dad raised me in a machine shop and to think and build things not shoot hoops. I just think things out and make them work solving problems how I was raised with the ability to think and work with my hands. Sorry Kal I did not know your limitations.

 

[BrewBeemer]

I'm not sure myself

The Auberins PID manuals do mention:

Measurement accuracy:

0.2% Full scale: RTD, linear voltage, linear current and thermocouple input with ice point compensation or Cu50 copper compensation.

0.2% Full scale or ±2ºC: thermocouple input with internal automatic compensation.

I'm not really sure what that extra "or ±2ºC" for TC's really means.

I really didn't mean to spend much time figuring out if the $25 more was worth it. I just planned on ordering the more expensive temp probe.

Kal

I find this funny your above statement reply of 0.2% full scale RTD then again
0.2% full scale or +-2*C: thermocouple with internal automatic compensation.

0.2% full scale between both the RTD and the TC reads the same to me on your above posting. From brewing with many brew shops besides working in a full scale brewey they have told me that the difference is so little in error between a TC and a RTD your only fooling yourself and your wallet unless it's a must have item for the involved ego. This from a Anheuser Bush master brewer at a brewery tour I went thru asking questions. Questions to the master brewer himself allowed by our tour guide person as we had a group of homebrewers in our small group. A one on one question and answer time from those that know and make bier by the millions of gallons besides I worked on that brewery for 7 months as a electrician.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Yes, they have a TC probe too with a disconnect, along with the two RTD's listed in the original post. You can see what they sell on two pages:

RTD: Temperature sensors, RTD (PLT) : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry
Thermo: Temp Sensors, Thermocouple : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry

Kal

Kal;after going thru both the RTD (8 posted) and the Thermo coupler section of the Auber company looking thru what you posted above is there a secret page you know about that I "can see"? On the Auber company the only spring lock disconnecting wires are on the RTD probes. I can no find any spring lock disconnecting wires to the thermo couples, for that matter any of the thermo couple probes. On the thermo couple probes (16 posted) the only thing they show is a spring strain relief for the wires. Can you please repete your finding again so that I can find them this time? Thanks as my BCS-460 that i'll order in a couple weeks only works with 10K ohm thermo couples not RTD's.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Yes, they have a TC probe too with a disconnect, along with the two RTD's listed in the original post.
Kal

After emailing Auber Sales with a reply from a person named Suyi, Auber does not make a disconnect probe for any of their TC probes.
This straight from the Auber manufacture.
RTD's yes you can get them ordered with a spring lock disconnect probe leads.

 

[kal]

That there is the difference between me and you. For one thing I do not have to "spend $10-20+ on some stainless stock and other supplies and get it machines exactly right?" No I just walk 20' away from my lathe in my materials stock supply that is seperated in copper, brass, aluminum, steel and stainless and take what I need for the project to fit my finished size. A little 15 minute job on the lathe to make a adapter fitting, tap, thread then parting tool cut off and debur. I'm a doer and make parts that are not available problem solved.

Fair enough. I guess I just find it odd when people make suggestions when they must realize that 99.9% of the people here could not undertake the work involved. If I had an entire machine shop complete with stock of various raw metals and the machines to make anything I wanted like you do, I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place right?

I find this funny your above statement reply of 0.2% full scale RTD then again
0.2% full scale or +-2*C: thermocouple with internal automatic compensation...

It's not my statement. I didn't write that. I was just quoting what's on the Auberins website. I mentioned I didn't understand the differentiation.

After emailing Auber Sales with a reply from a person named Suyi, Auber does not make a disconnect probe for any of their TC probes.
This straight from the Auber manufacture.
RTD's yes you can get them ordered with a spring lock disconnect probe leads.

MY mistake. Just use RTD then. They're about $8 more then their TC's with nice NPT screw-in fittings ($29 instead of $21). Pays for the disconnect and the 'upgrade' to RTD.

Kal
Kal

 

[kal]

Anyone know if it's ok to extend the wires on an RTD probe? These are about 6 feet long and I'll need an extra couple of feet inside the panel.

Kal

 

[kal]

I use one pid in my system. The thermocouple is located between the heat exchanger (herms coil) and the return manifold at the top of the mash tun. I fill my mash tun with the mash water and the HLT with the sparge water. I set my PID to my desired temp and start pumping the mash water thru the herms coil. The HLT heats up to several degrees above the temp I dialed in for my Mash tun and gradually my mash water is heated to the desired temp.

Had some questions about your process so I started a new thread here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/how-avoid-over-under-shoot-herms-hlt-103745/

Kal