How much is too much IBU's?

[Mugsfull]

I have some ingredients to use up. I’m gonna make a partial mash IPA tomorrow.

Mashed Grains:
4.5 American 2 row pale
.75 Crystal 20
.5 Carapils
.0625 Acid Malt

Extract:
3 lbs light liquid malt extract

The hops are what I would like some input on. I like a very hoppy beer but haven’t gone over the top before. With these I might overdo it. I have on hand:

2 oz Summit 17.6%
1 oz Warrior 16.7%
1 oz UK Target 10.7%
1 oz Palisade 7.8%

Any way I put these into Beersmith makes me insane. Should I use some or all? FWH or Dry hop? All suggestions are welcome!

 

[Obliviousbrew]

I will leave the Target behind, use the warrior @60, 1 oz of palisade and 1 oz summitt anywhere in the last 15 minutes (whatever rocks your boat) and dry hop with 1 oz of summit. I´m away from my computer but i tell you it´s not gonna be crazy ibus just a bitter IPA.

 

[Calichusetts]

Beersmith isn't the final authority. I started creeping up with my brews into the 90 and 100 range months ago, yet there was hardly any perceived bitterness. I hop burst so it might have an impact, and I calculate my flameout hops (huge additions) as a 1 minute along with a somewhat sweet beer.

Just did a double batch that came out to 156 IBUs and I have little concern that it will compare to any commercial brew near the 100 IBU range.

 

[Mugsfull]

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[Yooper]

Remember that the Beersmith calculations are not all that accurate over about 80 IBUs, and since hops oils can only isomerize until the point of saturation that it's impossible to actually get more than about 100 IBUs in any beer.

Some experts claim it is more like 80, while others say it could be as high as 120, but even Pliny the Elder (with a theoretical IBU calculation of 250+) was tested and is under 90 IBUs.

 

[Tantalus]

There is a fair amount of evidence that IBUs above the 90-100 range have less and less ability to be perceived by most people.

 

[Beezer94]

Water chemistry has a huge effect on perceived bitterness. I used Tasty McDole's APA water profile for my pale ales, IPA's & IIPA's and it has a great effect of bringing out the bitterness.

Target Water

Ca - 110
Mg - 18
Na - 17
SO4 - 350
Cl - 50
HCO3 - 0


With RO water

CaSO4 (Gypsum) - 1.6g per gallon
MgSO4 (Epsom Salt) - 0.7g per gallon
NaCl (Canning Salt) - 0.2g per gallon
NaHCO3 (Baking Soda) - 0.0g
CaCl2 (Calcium Chloride) - 0.1g per gallon
CaCO3 (Calcium Carbonate) - 0.0g

 

[brycelarson]

Remember that the Beersmith calculations are not all that accurate over about 80 IBUs, and since hops oils can only isomerize until the point of saturation that it's impossible to actually get more than about 100 IBUs in any beer.

I've heard that a lot - and I don't disagree - but why is saturation for Alpha Acids only 100 ppm? That's just not a very strong solution. I would think that just from the basic chemistry side of things you should be able to suspend a lot more acid in water.

There is a fair amount of evidence that IBUs above the 90-100 range have less and less ability to be perceived by most people.

Yeah, as was described to me by a pro brewer friend in a nicely clear way - after you hit 100 IBU you're only adding duration of perceived bitterness - not how bitter it is.

 

[david_42]

I like a very hoppy beer but haven’t gone over the top before. With these I might overdo it.

One more time: Hoppy is not bitterness. You can make Bitter beers without any hop aroma/flavor. You can make very hoppy beers that are not bitter. Do a search on "hop burst".

 

[Yooper]

I've heard that a lot - and I don't disagree - but why is saturation for Alpha Acids only 100 ppm? That's just not a very strong solution. I would think that just from the basic chemistry side of things you should be able to suspend a lot more acid in water.



Yeah, as was described to me by a pro brewer friend in a nicely clear way - after you hit 100 IBU you're only adding duration of perceived bitterness - not how bitter it is.

I don't know why that is the saturation level, and I'm no science geek! I just believe the chemistry nerds on the subject.

 

[jonmohno]

According to a Beer calc,I was shocked to see I made a 99 IBU for my GW- UK recipe. It did in no way taste that bitter ,(thats like Hoptimum or Hopslam levels) but was a good Ipa that didnt have a bitterness near that. I sent this into a Homebrew Compettion under EnglishIPA category,guess Im going to get knocked for that,thought of changing it to American but it really was more of an English base(yeast/hops) and taste overall.
I just wonder how much bitterness they can really lose with semi-long storage. I think week long shipping in warm-hot weather last spring did my hops over,it seemed I had to usually use more most of the time .Im definatly getting icepacks/or get them shipped in cold weather from now on also.

 

[terrapinj]

there are plenty of foods out there that are way more bitter than any beer you can find

our tastebuds aren't limited at 100ish IBU - it's the isomerization of the alpha acids that's limited to that level of perception

the problem is also that each of our perceptions of bitterness varies genetically, then you factor in water chemistry etc

 

[brycelarson]

our tastebuds aren't limited at 100ish IBU - it's the isomerization of the alpha acids that's limited to that level of perception

dunno - if you taste fresh hops or hop extract they are super bitter, yes, but the noticeable factor is how long the taste sticks in your mouth.

 

[Mugsfull]

Water chemistry has a huge effect on perceived bitterness. I used Tasty McDole's APA water profile for my pale ales, IPA's & IIPA's and it has a great effect of bringing out the bitterness.

This is the water Profile I've settled into:

Calcium 112
Magnesium 20
Sodium 51
Chloride 131
Sulfate 125

It’s a mix of local water, distilled and then additions of Gyp, CaCl, Epsom and baking soda. I arrived at my levels using EZ_water. I also use 1 or 2 oz of Acid Malt to get the PH in the target zone.

I like the distinction between ‘Hoppy’ and ‘Bitter’. I do dry hop and really enjoy the aromas and flavors of lots of late and dry hops. I also like the sharp bitterness of the 60 min hops. I never knew about the perception of hops beyond 100 or more as I’m reading here.

I did go with this:

FWH: 1 oz summit
60: 1 oz warrior
Flameout: 1 oz summit

Planning to dry hop with 1 oz Palisade

I’m just trying to be more careful. One beer I made was very very bitter. So bitter, that I had to re-name it Mr. Smiley. I noticed whenever I served it that after 3 drinks everyone’s lips peeled back off their teeth and stayed that way. I just thought it made everyone happy.

 

[JesperX]

Even at lower IBU levels, beersmith calculations can be generous. They vary widely from formula to formula and you can lose IBUs all over the place on a beer depending on technique and process, especially the more hops you add.

 

[Yooper]

This is the water Profile I've settled into:

Calcium 112
Magnesium 20
Sodium 51
Chloride 131
Sulfate 125

It’s a mix of local water, distilled and then additions of Gyp, CaCl, Epsom and baking soda. I arrived at my levels using EZ_water. I also use 1 or 2 oz of Acid Malt to get the PH in the target zone.

I like the distinction between ‘Hoppy’ and ‘Bitter’. I do dry hop and really enjoy the aromas and flavors of lots of late and dry hops. I also like the sharp bitterness of the 60 min hops. I never knew about the perception of hops beyond 100 or more as I’m reading here.

I did go with this:

FWH: 1 oz summit
60: 1 oz warrior
Flameout: 1 oz summit

Planning to dry hop with 1 oz Palisade

I’m just trying to be more careful. One beer I made was very very bitter. So bitter, that I had to re-name it Mr. Smiley. I noticed whenever I served it that after 3 drinks everyone’s lips peeled back off their teeth and stayed that way. I just thought it made everyone happy.

Well, that water is not-so-good but if it's done it's done. The chloride is way too high (don't go above 100 ppm), and the sodium is high. The magnesium is "ok" but I prefer it lower but that is my preference and not a rule.

i would have definitely let out the sodium chloride, and the epsom salts. But maybe you will like the final beer, and that is the important thing!