How much better is all grain Vs. Extract brewing??

[Stagnasty]

Not getting into the debate, but here's my personal take on it, as a relatively recent convert to AG after doing some extract brews:

You can go to Dell, 'customize' a computer, add a monitor/UPS/etc. buy it as a package, and have it shipped directly to your door. It'll run Windows/Office/Photoshop just fine.

OR, you can buy the parts and build your own computer to your own personal specs. Sometimes this is the only way to fine tune exactly what you want in your machine, and it might be cheaper than buying exactly what you want from someone else, but might take more time.

So, both can produce excellent results, just like extract vs. grain, but you can tweak grain recipes easier than extract, and it'll cost less in supplies (but more in start up materials). Once you go all grain, though, it's really hard to go back to extract (IMO).

Thanks for this response,, you are the only one here that hasn't lambasted me for my recipe,,,,,, are you sure your a brewer?????

 

[PurdyGood]

The first extract batch I brewed was a Red Ale, and it was delicious after conditioning for a few months. But I had done my research, and I was a little disappointed in how simple it was. I have since brewed only a few all-grain batches, and one of them was a Red Ale. My AG Red Ale was better than the extract batch (even though there was more work involved), and my little brother and my Dad thought it was the tits. I take more pride in my AG beers than I did in my extract batches. I made the transition slowly. I did BIAB (Brew In A Bag) for a couple batches, and decided that the beers weren't as good as I would like them to be, so I made a MLT and now I'm kegging and I haven't looked back. I love telling people, "You like that beer? Yeah, I made it from scratch!" Most of them have lots of questions and are thinking about starting brewing themselves. I love all-grain brewing, and I used to be very intimidated by it, but thanks to this forum, the transition was easy and fun, and the beer tastes GREAT!

 

[agusus]

Flavor profile is just the start. You also have control of mouthfeel, fermentability, freshness, clarity, and much more. Sure, people can make decent extract beer. But as much as people want to tout the few extract beers that have won medals, all grain beer made correctly will trump extract beer any day of the week.

I think you may be overestimating the number of reasons you think AG gives you more control. I do both extract and AG, plus partial mash. Let's look at each item you claim AG gives you more control over:

• control of mouthfeel,
  I have control over this with extract too. Mouthfeel is largely determined by carbonation and non-fermentables (body) right?
  
  
• fermentability,
  AG has the edge here, I agree, but you can control this with extract too - if you want high fermentability, use extracts that have higher fermentability or use some corn sugar. If you want lower fermentability, use some dark extract, more specialty grains in steeping, or maltodextrin.
  
  
• freshness,
  Definitely have control over this with extract. Just buy fresh extract from a good supplier.
  
  
• clarity,
  Definitely have control over this with extract. Use finings, proper conditioning time and cold conditioning and you can get great clarity in extract beers too.
  
  
• and much more
  like what?
  

My list of the two things that can't be done with extract would be base malt flavor profile (already mentioned in this thread) and fermentability (but like I said above, there are ways to cheat at this with extract so it's not as big a deal as it seems in my opinion).

 

[Ksosh]

Thanks for this response,, you are the only one here that hasn't lambasted me for my recipe,,,,,, are you sure your a brewer?????

If you can drink it, then by all means brew whatever you want, who am I to judge. It probably tastes a hell of a lot better than DFH's Festina Peche sour (only beer I've dumped down the sink to date). Though I'd personally rather use the $6 on PBR if I wasn't going to pay the extra for an all-grain recipe.

 

[Stagnasty]

If you can drink it, then by all means brew whatever you want, who am I to judge. It probably tastes a hell of a lot better than DFH's Festina Peche sour (only beer I've dumped down the sink to date). Though I'd personally rather use the $6 on PBR if I wasn't going to pay the extra for an all-grain recipe.

I've drunk a bunch of PBR, and my homebrew is WAY better, if it wern't, I'd still be drinking the swill

 

[carnevoodoo]

I think you may be overestimating the number of reasons you think AG gives you more control. I do both extract and AG, plus partial mash. Let's look at each item you claim AG gives you more control over:

• control of mouthfeel,
  I have control over this with extract too. Mouthfeel is largely determined by carbonation and non-fermentables (body) right?
  
  
• fermentability,
  AG has the edge here, I agree, but you can control this with extract too - if you want high fermentability, use extracts that have higher fermentability or use some corn sugar. If you want lower fermentability, use some dark extract, more specialty grains in steeping, or maltodextrin.
  
  
• freshness,
  Definitely have control over this with extract. Just buy fresh extract from a good supplier.
  
  
• clarity,
  Definitely have control over this with extract. Use finings, proper conditioning time and cold conditioning and you can get great clarity in extract beers too.
  
  
• and much more
  like what?
  

I'll bite on the first two on that list in particular, and they're related issues, so I'll handle them the same way. Mouthfeel is definitely determined by unfermentables and carbonation, as well as proteins. To get more unfermentable sugar with a mash, all you do is mash higher. This will give you more mouthfeel and less fermentable sugar, producing a more malty, and fuller beer. That is fully controllable as long as you're a proficient brewer.

That is just not the case with extract, though. You said that you can add dark DME to get more unfermentable sugar, but then you end up with a darker beer. And you could add sugar to get the alcohol higher, but the base malt will still only be so fermentable. There's just less control.

Now, freshness with a good supplier is ok, I suppose, but it never seemed quite as good to me. And yeah, I've had clear extract beer, but overall, I've seen much clearer beer with all grain.

I am surely biased in this regard. All of the brewers I know that are producing consistently good beer are all grain brewers. I've had good extract beer, but never anything that rivaled commercial beer. I am a total snob and I know that. I've never said extract was horrible or evil or anything. I just know that if you really want control over your product and you want to be able to make the best beer you can, you should be brewing all grain. If extract somehow produced better beer than all grain, there would be a lot more hype around it.

 

[Synovia]

No, it really isn't. Everyone knows that while limited, the few good strains of dry yeast are as good as the liquid yeast. That has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about.

Extract is limiting in many ways, one being the level of fermentability. If I want a super dry IPA, I can mash low to convert more starch. If I want it more malty, I mash higher. That right there makes extract a less controllable product.

Color is another issue. You can only get a beer so pale with extract before you're done.

I won't even start on cost, which in my opinion makes it better...

Can extract make good beer? Sure. But the level of control you can get from all grain is still not possible with extract. You can only dial in a beer so far before you run into big brick walls, and there's a reason every great brewer has an all grain rig around.

Umm, you're agreeing with me here. Both can make fantastic beer. One can make more styles. Just like Wet vs Dry Yeast.

You're arguing against a strawman.

 

[fishruss]

I too think that good yeast pitching numbers and proper temp control are the most important quality control measures (with good sanitation steps) for acheiving great brews. If you don't have this control with extract brewing, it wont make any difference with all grain.

 

[lowlife]

Its like any other cooking. Some people use canned ingredients, some people process their own. Canned ingredients can be old and taste like **** compared to fresh ones. Other Canned ingredients can be fresh if you buy them from the right place.

 

[tskinsv]

I know people argue whole grain saves money over extract just like people state home brew saves money over store bought. Yeah your recurring costs (ingredients, additives, cleaners, sanitizers, grain bags, test strips, bottle caps, fuel, etc.) go down but your fixed costs go up for equipment. It takes many batches of lower ingredients cost to make up for the extra fixed costs. And most people find you seem to keep buying equipment so your fixed costs keep increasing. Some people have to consider the storage space costs, if not in dollars in tradeoffs of what else you can do with that space. And this is without considering the cost of your time which what I get paid per hour means I will never save money for home brewing or the step up to whole grain. Now considering I drink more beer since I started home brewing, I actually spend more on beer now. And for levity I also have to spend more time exercising to work off these additional beer calories I am taking in.

This is home brewing which means it is a hobby. And like so many hobbies you can get very involved and spend a lot. You do this for fun, not to save money, and there is no doubt many people are going to find full grain brewing very satisfying. Many people are going to be very happy just doing extract brewing. Most people are extremely happy to just let someone else do the brewing. Of course my friends are very happy to drink my home brewed beer so I have additional unplanned costs. And these friends don’t show up with store bought 6 packs anymore.

Are you going to like the flavor and aroma of whole grain better, that is personal preference? Can you do more with whole grain as far as flavor and aroma? Yes, but there are hybrid brewing techniques, that don’t have all the equipment costs, that are just as satisfactory for most people’s pallets. There are some people with pallets the level of wine sommelier where whole grain is the only way they will be satisfied. My gut feel is that most people who move to whole grain get their satisfaction from the ability to start with raw ingredients. Heck I have a buddy who took it a step further and has grown his own grain and hops.

At whatever level you are doing this hobby the key is are you having fun!!! If you are you are a winner!

As far as people who put down people not doing it they way they are doing it, your not having fun!

 

[ol-hazza]

I can still remember the feeling I got when I took my first gravity reading of AG wort and knew it was going to make beer (A Bass pale ale clone which I mashed too high and was too sweet) and its really been no looking back since then.

Percentage wise I made more good extract beers than AG but with a fermentation chamber and immersion chiller my AG is getting really good

 

[BrotherBock]

Even with my equipment upgrade, which isn't that bad especially if yo use craigslist I save money on beer. Fixed costs be damned. Especially if I'm buying bulk hops, saving my yeast and doing all-grain saves me a crap ton of $ on beer. I've made 5 gallon batches for around $20, some less. Do the math, it doesn't take long before you recoup the costs of a mash tun. Even more so if your using minimal equipment like just a kettle and a mash tun.


Nothing wrong with extract. You can make great beer with it. The thing it doesn't give you, that all-grain does, is control and greater grain options. Through mash temp I can control fermentability to a level I can't with extract (its already mashed and ready). Through more grain options (that don't exist as extract) I can play with all kinds of flavors.

Plus the process is fun and gives you the opportunity to dive deeper into the science of brewing.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Extract brewing is like this...

Whereas all-grain brewing is like this...

 

[brrman]

All-grain can actually make your beer worse initially... Water chemistry comes into play with the mash so it will depend on your water source. I found all my IPAs were harsh and astringent after changing to all grain. Had to build a water profile by starting with distilled and adding calcium chloride, magnesium, etc, for all my beers without dark malt in them (dark malt has the acidity needed so I could still use tap water for those)

 

[Calichusetts]

All-grain: Better control, cheaper and more flexibility in style...that is all.

 

[Dmlsys23]

All-grain: Better control, cheaper and more flexibility in style...that is all.

Agreed. And for me, I take more pride in the finished product since it was all my own hard work. I seriously have nothing at all against extract- you can make great beer with it! In fact, the best beer I've made to date was an extract batch. I just enjoy the feeling of being more connected (IMHO) to the finished product with all-grain.

 

[catdaddy66]

I liked the control aspect of all grain brewing vs extract. The labor costs (roughly double the time) weren't bad IMO. I knew I was onto something when my brother drank my first IPA and loved it! He asked if I thought AG made a better product and I thought it did. My beers were clearer, tastier and higher in abv as well as a bit cheaper for ingredients.

What's not to love?

 

[k1ngl1ves]

Some of the best beers I've made were tweeked extract recipes. The worse beers I've made were BIAB. All of my 3 vessel AG beers fall somewhere in between those... mostly because I try crazy ideas with my AG brewing. Lol!

BIAB is great for getting into AG, but I don't recommend it for the long run. Just a personal preference. To me, color, clarity, and overall mouthfeel/experience for standard AG is far superior to BIAB. If I want to save a couple hours, I'd pick extract over BIAB too.



3 vessel AG is more fun too, in my opinion. I'll go run and hide now...

 

[cjgenever]

More control and less expensive. But you're trading time for that money. You can brew great beer with both.