How long minimum start to finish?

[natehoekstra]

Hi everyone,
I started making this cider for a party out friends throw each fall, and started it as soon as they made plans. The party is October 18, and the cider has been in primary fermentation since 9/6. The fermentation is nearly done, (still have to check gravity) but my reading here tells me that 5 more weeks is not enough time to make a good product.

Any tips on how to get the best results possible with the time I have left? I'd like to bottle carbonate with some priming sugar, but will accept still if longer secondary means far superior result. Help!

 

[Hello]

What yeast did you use? There's a recipe for a 5 day cider here.
The thing with fermentation is you can't exactly rush it. Yeast works on its own timeline.

Also, what's your SG and your gravity now?

 

[natehoekstra]

I used half a package of a dry English ale yeast. The fermentation looks to be nearly complete. Starting gravity was 1.042.

 

[natehoekstra]

My real concern is I read on here that people allow the cider to sit in secondary/racks for months and months. If I let it ferment for another week, then 2 weeks in secondary, then bottle carb with priming sugar for two weeks that's all the time I have.

 

[ericbw]

My real concern is I read on here that people allow the cider to sit in secondary/racks for months and months. If I let it ferment for another week, then 2 weeks in secondary, then bottle carb with priming sugar for two weeks that's all the time I have.

Should have started last year. Joking. You don't keg, right?

 

[natehoekstra]

No, I just got a keg setup but don't have the fridge yet to keep the co2 saturated. I will do still if skipping bottle carving will yield a better tasting product.

 

[Maylar]

My real concern is I read on here that people allow the cider to sit in secondary/racks for months and months. If I let it ferment for another week, then 2 weeks in secondary, then bottle carb with priming sugar for two weeks that's all the time I have.

Your time line is doable. Aging in secondary is for flavor enhancement, it's not a requirement.

With Nottingham yeast I've had fermentation complete in 3 weeks. 2 weeks in primary, one week in secondary to clear up, with FG .995

I haven't done bottle carbing yet but from what I've read 2 weeks should get you there.

 

[natehoekstra]

Your time line is doable. Aging in secondary is for flavor enhancement, it's not a requirement.

This is good to know. I just took a hydro reading and it's at 1.002 or so. I plan to transfer to a carboy tomorrow, let it rest there for 3 weeks in secondary and then bottle. Thanks!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

No, I just got a keg setup but don't have the fridge yet to keep the co2 saturated. I will do still if skipping bottle carving will yield a better tasting product.

You can both force carbonate in room temperatures and keep the co2 dissolved at the same temperatures. It takes a higher pressure at warmer temperatures to force carbonate to a desired volume of co2. I typically carbonate at room temps for everything. I set my regulator around 30psi to do so. Once it is carbonated it will stay carbonated as long as you don't have a leaky keg.

 

[natehoekstra]

So much to learn... I would love to keg this, then just bring the keg and co2 to the party after putting it on ice for a few hours. Is there a chart somewhere that shows how many psi to use? I have a 5 gallon corny keg.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator/carbonation.html?17247464#tag

That should work. 2.5 volumes is a good starting point. You cant really pour a warm beer from the keg to test carbonation because the co2 will come out of solution in in the line. I do serve warm kegs by way of a jockey box. It cools the beer in line and comes out of the faucet nice and cool.

 

[javalin]

Found this chart in a different thread a while ago.

 

[Sir-Hops-A-Lot]

Sanitize your keg. Keg your cider. Hook up the pressure hose at about 15 or 20 psi. Connect the hose and let it fill for a minute.
Then vent some air out the release valve and listen to it refilling two or three times. This gets the oxygen out so it only has C02.
You can shake your keg every few hours to get it to carb faster. The time it takes to carb up depends on how much beer you put. Less beer, more air space, less time required. More beer, less air space, more time. Don't fill more than 3/4 of the keg's height with beer.
There is more than one way to do it. That is really all you need to know.
On the day of the party, put the keg in a large bucket and surround it with ice water. I predict that you are about to become more popular among friends.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

...
More beer, less air space, more time. Don't fill more than 3/4 of the keg's height with beer.
...

Why can't you fill a keg more than 3/4?

 

[Sir-Hops-A-Lot]

The idea is not to go above your gas in tube. I've read that you can get beer in your air line.
It's also good to have some air at the top. The more air space in the keg, the easier the carb process.
Like anything else on this forum, there are more than one way to go about kegging. This is how I do it.

 

[Yooper]

. The more air space in the keg, the easier the carb process.

I've never heard that before. How does that work? It seems to me that the width is fixed, and so the headspace is fixed, and there wouldn't be greater contact with the air space.

In any case, I have never heard that before and am curious about the science of it and why it would be faster with a lowered volume. That hasn't been my experience, but I've only been kegging for 7 years.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Yooper, are you being a smart a$$??

The gas in tube is very short on all my kegs. I rack them right up to the top. I'm doing 10+ gallons batches and have no inclination to clean more kegs than I have to...

Head space is head space. Make sure you have a little and flush it with co2 a few times and then leave some pressure on it and give it time. This is a TIME RELATED hobby. Can't rush yeast, can't rush co2 and can't rush conditioning. There will always be that guy that has a sure fire way to rush something. But why? Just developed a better pipeline and stfu and rdwhahb.

 

[natehoekstra]

Ok, so back to the main point: if I rack to secondary, let sit for three weeks, then transfer to keg, pressurize and bleed to replace air with co2, gently mix and shake every few hours, and let sit under pressure for a week, unchilled, before taking to party and icing down for service I might have a winner that's dry and carbonated?

 

[Yooper]

Ok, so back to the main point: if I rack to secondary, let sit for three weeks, then transfer to keg, pressurize and bleed to replace air with co2, gently mix and shake every few hours, and let sit under pressure for a week, unchilled, before taking to party and icing down for service I might have a winner that's dry and carbonated?

I may have missed something- but why not rack to the keg (instead of a carboy) and use that for your secondary? Don't shake the keg or anything, and instead just put the gas on it at 30 psi (at room temperature) for a couple of weeks (or all three that it's sitting if it's longer than two weeks), and serve carbonated, fully conditioned beer? I don't see why an extra racking and then shaking and stuff to fully carb it in a hurry would be desirable.

 

[natehoekstra]

I may have missed something- but why not rack to the keg (instead of a carboy) and use that for your secondary?

I was always under the impression the secondary ferment in the carboy was to allow remaining sediment to settle out. If I rack straight to keg won't any residual solids sink to the bottom and result in a cloudy cider?
Also, will chilling it prior to serving cause the carb to get messed up if I pressurize at 30 psi at room temp? I'm after 2.5 volume carb.
Oh, while we're at it, how long do I need to bleed the pressure off to ensure all the air is out and co2 in?

 

[Yooper]

I was always under the impression the secondary ferment in the carboy was to allow remaining sediment to settle out. If I rack straight to keg won't any residual solids sink to the bottom and result in a cloudy cider?
Also, will chilling it prior to serving cause the carb to get messed up if I pressurize at 30 psi at room temp? I'm after 2.5 volume carb.
Oh, while we're at it, how long do I need to bleed the pressure off to ensure all the air is out and co2 in?

Well, the sediment will settle in the keg as well as in the carboy. Don't move the keg, and pour off the first three ounces, and boom! clear and carbonated beer.

You don't need to bleed off pressure more than once or twice when you fill the keg. After that leave it at 30 psi at room temperature until you're ready to chill it.

 

[natehoekstra]

When I'm ready to chill it should I drop the pressure to 9 psi for serving pressure?

 

[Yooper]

When I'm ready to chill it should I drop the pressure to 9 psi for serving pressure?

I don't know what your desired carb level is, but 9 psi seems to be pretty low unless you want the beer pretty flat or the fridge is near freezing. Mine is at 12 psi at 40 degrees, and that's a good carb level for most styles.

 

[gregkeller]

I wouldnt secondary in a keg for one reason the OP mentioned earlier. He is bringing the beer to a party. that means the keg is going to be moved just before it's served. Throw it in a secondary if you want to for the next few weeks. I might crash cool the last couple days to try and clear the cider as much as possible before kegging. People expect a crystal clear cider. Gelatin might not even be a bad idea, but cider has to be really cold for that to work.

I think what you've got going for you is you don't have a 10% cider. If OG was in the 1.040-1.050 range it doesn't need as much conditioning as people who jack up their cider with pounds of corn/cane sugar. You should be fine.

One thing i'll add to make your head even more full of possible ideas is if kegging, maybe a little backsweetening isn't a bad idea. Two of those 6-8 oz apple juice concentrate things from the frozen aisle at the grocery store helps add back some of the apple flavor that fermentation scrubbed out. A totally dry, carbed cider is sometimes not what people are expecting when you tell them you've got a hard cider. It's just something that's worked for me when i've had to do a cider quickly.

 

[natehoekstra]

maybe a little backsweetening isn't a bad idea. Two of those 6-8 oz apple juice concentrate things from the frozen aisle at the grocery store helps add back some of the apple flavor that fermentation scrubbed out. A totally dry, carbed cider is sometimes not what people are expecting when you tell them you've got a hard cider. It's just something that's worked for me when i've had to do a cider quickly.

I've got some spiced apple extract that I plan to add a teaspoon or two of, along with a few ounces of xylitol (non-fermentable sweetener) while being careful not to over sweeten.

Now I just need to figure out how the hell to force carb without a fridge, and without losing all of the CO2 when I chill it. My plan now is to let sit for two weeks in secondary (racking to carboy tomorrow) then rack to keg two weeks before the party, pressure and bleed a few times to purge O2, then pressure up to 29 psi (for 2.52 volumes of carbonation or whatever) at 65 degrees, then just bring the keg to the party, drop the pressure to 9 psi for serving when I get there, and run about 30 feet of tubing to the picnic tap through a huge ice bucket to chill it like a jockey box.

 

[natehoekstra]

I don't know what your desired carb level is, but 9 psi seems to be pretty low unless you want the beer pretty flat or the fridge is near freezing. Mine is at 12 psi at 40 degrees, and that's a good carb level for most styles.

I missed this earlier. I've been told that to force carb (looking for decent carbonation) I need almost 30 psi at 65 degrees, but trying to serve at 30 psi would result in a powerful, foamy awful mess when trying to serve.

Tips on how to serve it right while still force carbing without a fridge?

 

[ericbw]

I missed this earlier. I've been told that to force carb (looking for decent carbonation) I need almost 30 psi at 65 degrees, but trying to serve at 30 psi would result in a powerful, foamy awful mess when trying to serve.



Tips on how to serve it right while still force carbing without a fridge?

Set it to 30psi at 65. You'll get x volumes of CO2 after about 2 weeks. It's carbed.

To serve, move to the fridge at 40 degrees. It is still at x volumes carbonation.

Vent the keg (depressurize) then set it to 14 psi. The cider is still carbed at x volumes.

Check the numbers, and make sure your system is balanced with the right line length.

 

[podz]

Minimum start to finish for fermentation time depends on the starting gravity. I usually start at 1.065 and with DAP that will finish in 7-8 days. It will take another week to drop clear at room temperature, or 1-2 days if cold crashing.

You could cold crash the entire vessel by placing it in a huge bucket full of ice, sort of like what they do with beer kegs at parties.