How long are you willing to wait for signs of fermentation?

[Ohio-Ed]

I brewed Saturday and pitched a yeast that I harvested and washed in September (I know... a long time ago). I made a starter 2 days before brew day (should have been earlier but I forgot about it). Saturday morning (brew day), the starter was showing signs of activity but not as much as I would like to see. BTW... it is Wyeast 1056.
So, it has been about 60 hours...
I have a 3 piece airlock on the fermenter in a 68f chamber, and the "cup" in the airlock is sitting dead on the bottom. I know not to rely on airlock activity to measure fermentation, but even if there's a leak, I can normally smell the activity when I open the fermentation chamber. If I don't see any outward signs, I will try to take a sample tonight to check the SG.

I can't get the the LHBS today, but could tomorrow.

So, the question is How long would you wait before pitching a new smack pack?

 

[wyzazz]

I'd wait 72 hours at a minimum, if you don't have any question about your sanitation methods then let it sit as long as a week or two. Unless you pitched HOT your yeast will start up!

 

[Revvy]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/fermentation-can-take-24-72-hrs-show-visible-signs-43635/, and by visible signs we don't necessarily mean a bubbling airlock.

It IS a sticky at the top of the beginners forum for a reason, afterall.

I noticed you didn't make a starter, and since it is advisable to make a starter with liquid yeast for any beer above 1.020, then of course it will take awhile to get going. They need to reproduce before they get working, so a long lag time is not surprising.

Relax, and take a hydro reading after 72 hours, since you already know that airlock bubbling is not a good sign, and honestly neither is your nose.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/fermentation-can-take-24-72-hrs-show-visible-signs-43635/, and by visible signs we don't necessarily mean a bubbling airlock.

It IS a sticky at the top of the beginners forum for a reason, afterall.

I noticed you didn't make a starter, and since it is advisable to make a starter with liquid yeast for any beer above 1.020, then of course it will take awhile to get going. They need to reproduce before they get working, so a long lag time is not surprising.

Relax, and take a hydro reading after 72 hours, since you already know that airlock bubbling is not a good sign, and honestly neither is your nose.

Thanks for responding.

I truly mean no disrespect, but you didn't answer my question.
If you re-read the op, you'll see I did make a starter (but it was somewhat "weak"), and I stated that I will take a hydro reading today which will be 72 hours.
So, if no activity (no change in sg) after 72 hours, would you re-pitch?
Would you make another starter?

I know a bubbling airlock or my nose are not reliable "tools", but up to this point they have always been very good indicators. If I take a hydro reading tonight and this thing is going gang busters, I promise, I will never smell my fermentation cabinet again

I was trying to find out how long I could keep washed yeast and feel comfortable about the viability... I think I have answered that question

 

[broadbill]

Optimum time to pitch a starter is at high krausen. That is because the yeast have finished their reproductive stage and have begun fermenting the sugars in the starter and producing CO2.

Sounds like you pitched before that happened so the yeast may be in an extended reproduction phase. You should be getting activity soon.

 

[Revvy]

Well I stand by my answer whether I missed the part about the starter or not....there is a reason why we say 72 hours, and not go by OTHER signs than a hydro....They may have been good "TOOLS" to you in the past, but that doesn't mean that they are this time.

there is nothing "typical" in brewing...every fermentation is different, and should not be used to compare one with another...you can't do that.

Just because you may have never had something happen before on your beers, doesn't mean that the yeast are doing anything wrong. It just means that you haven't experienced one of the infinite NORMAL behaviors that living organisms, living wildcards, are capable of.

you can't compare one brew to another. No two fermentations are ever exactly the same.

When we are dealing with living creatures, there is a wild card factor in play..Just like with other animals, including humans...No two behave the same.

You can split a batch in half put them in 2 identical carboys, and pitch equal amounts of yeast from the same starter...and have them act completely differently...for some reason on a subatomic level...think about it...yeasties are small...1 degree difference in temp to us, could be a 50 degree difference to them...one fermenter can be a couple degrees warmer because it's closer to a vent all the way across the room and the yeasties take off...

Someone, Grinder I think posted a pic once of 2 carboys touching each other, and one one of the carboys the krausen had formed only on the side that touched the other carboy...probably reacting to the heat of the first fermentation....but it was like symbiotic or something...

With living micro-organisms there is always a wildcard factor in play...and yet the yeast rarely lets us down. So it is best just to rdwhahb and trust that they know to what they are doing.

Don't assume the worst with the yeast, realize that they've been making beer since long before our great great great grandfather copped his first buzz from a 40 of mickey's out back of the highschool, so they are the experts.

Yeasts are like teenagers, swmbos, and humans in general, they have their own individual way of doing things.

Now to the part about yeast viability of stored yeast, I'll give you another pat answer that was written for a reason, just like we tell people to WAIT and to use your hydrometer, because we know other means are flawed, and yeast OFTEN need 72 hours. It's that simple.....

Bobby M did a test on year old stored yeast here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/testing-limits-yeast-viability-126707/

And my LHBS cells outdated tubes and packs of yeast dirt cheap 2-3 dollars each and I usually grab a couple tubes of belgian or other interesting yeast when I am there and shove it in my fridge. and I have never had a problem with one of those tubes.

I usually make a starter but I once pitched a year old tube of Belgian High Gravity yeast directly into a 2.5 gallon batch of a Belgian Dark Strong, and after about 4 days it took off beautifully.

With any stored, old yeast you just need first to apply the "sniff test" if it smell bad, especially if it smells like week old gorilla poop in a diaper left on the side of the road in the heat of summer.

Then make a starter, and if it takes off you are fine. The purpose of a starter is to reproduce any viable cells in a batch of yeast....that;s how we can grow a starter form the dregs in a bottle of beer incrementally...and that beer may be months old.

Even if you have a few still living cells, you can grow them....That's how we can harvest a huge starter (incrementally) from the dregs in a bottle of some commercial beers. You take those few living cells and grow them into more.

If yeast can be grown from a tiny amount that has been encased in amber for 45 million years, 45 million year old yeast ferments amber ale we really don't need to sweat too much about how old a yeast is, if it's properly stored.

we just need to think in terms of making starters. Viability isn't really an issue if you are reproducing a lot of healthy cells. Which is what you are doing when you make a starter.....

Really even with "old yeast" if there is a few cells, they will reproduce.

The only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometer. Like I said here in my blog, which I encourage you to read, Think evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

Thinking about "doing anything" without taking a hydrometer reading is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on?

Would you allow yourself to go into surgery if your doctor says? "I sniff all my patients, been doing it all my life, my nose KNOWS when a patient needs surgery."

Me personally, I'd want him to use a SCIENTIFIC instrument...

P

 

[kryolla]

I like to see signs of fermentation within 24 hrs. No matter has sanitize you are there will always be bugs in your wort.

 

[Revvy]

I like to see signs of fermentation within 24 hrs. No matter has sanitize you are there will always be bugs in your wort.

And I'd like to see my 1.080 beers ready from grain to glass in a week, and served to me by red-headed twin penthouse pets wearing garter belts and fishnet stockings, with Irish accents, calling me "master luv gun," but we can't always get what we want can we?

And I don't agree that there's ALWAYS bugs in your wort. If you've sanitized your gear AND your wort, then there's little worry about that.

 

[kryolla]

And I'd like to see my 1.080 beers ready from grain to glass in a week, and served to me by red-headed twin penthouse pets wearing garter belts and fishnet stockings, but we can't always get what we want can we?

And I don't agree that there's ALWAYS bugs in your wort. If you've sanitized your gear AND your wort, then there's little worry about that.

if you dont see a majority of your beers take off within 24 hrs then you are doing something wrong. For the right price you can get a red headed twin

 

[Revvy]

if you dont see a majority of your beers take off within 24 hrs then you are doing something wrong.

You can believe that if you want. But a 72 hour lag time is a NATURAL occurrence. Just because yeast need to reproduce, and come out of dormancy, doesn't mean anything is wrong. And we have thousands of threads on here that back it up.... And I bet even the OP's will confirm that.

 

[wyzazz]

And I'd like to see my 1.080 beers ready from grain to glass in a week, and served to me by red-headed twin penthouse pets wearing garter belts and fishnet stockings, with Irish accents, calling me "master luv gun," but we can't always get what we want can we?

And there's my new sig, thanks Revvy!

 

[Revvy]

And there's my new sig, thanks Revvy!

I was hoping somebody would snag it up. I pride myself on getting a good one occasionally. It's been awhile.

 

[wyzazz]

I was hoping somebody would snag it up. I pride myself on getting a good one occasionally. It's been awhile.

Oh, that one was too good to pass up. Pure Gold!!!

 

[Ohio-Ed]

You can believe that if you want. But a 72 hour lag time is a NATURAL occurrence. Just because yeast need to reproduce, and come out of dormancy, doesn't mean anything is wrong. And we have thousands of threads on here that back it up.... And I bet even the OP's will confirm that.

I knew when I started this thread where it was likely to go... I really didn't intend for this to be another "It's not bubbling" thread.

I agree every brew is different... I also agree with the statements about the redhead twins

I have waited 72 hours on other brews and I'm not in a panic now... just wondering how long you would wait? I probably should not have even mentioned the current brew in this thread... I guess it is just distracting.

I know the "rule of thumb" is 72 hours, but the question is then what? Wait another 72? At what point would YOU start making another starter?

BTW... I made this same recipe with a jar of washed yeast from the same harvest about 2 months ago and it was very active within 12 hours (no need of a hydro to tell). Again, I'm not trying to compare that to this brew, I know they are all individuals

 

[Revvy]

I know the "rule of thumb" is 72 hours, but the question is then what? Wait another 72? At what point would YOU start making another starter?

I would wait a minimum of 72 hours before I took a grav reading.....It's that simple.

And I have never had a beer EVER need me to re-pitch it. But after 72 hours, I would then consider adding yeast.

But like I have said here, the yeast have never let me down, even when I didn't make starters, used old yeast, yadda yadda yadda. That's why I give the answers I do, that's why I write the blogs I do. Based on mine, and other's experiences. I've been doing this for quite awhile now, and I've not been let down by the yeasties, ever.

 

[kryolla]

if you pitch the proper amount and the yeast is healthy it will take off within 24hrs. Also anytime you introduce ambient air you are also introducing bugs

 

[wyzazz]

If I had no fermentation at a week I'd probably get another starter going, that is if life didn't get in the way. If life did happen to get in the way then I'd just let it sit until I had the time, I'm confident enough in my sanitation practices that I don't think it would end up infected.

 

[goose1873]

Although I do agree 72 hours is normal (especially with notty...) I've only had one batch out of about 40 not start in the first 24hrs (and it was notty)...With a starter or dry yeast, it USUALLY takes <24hrs.

That being said I wouldn't get concerned until after 60hrs and wouldn't do anything until at least 72hr....

 

[Revvy]

if you pitch the proper amount and the yeast is healthy it will take off within 24hrs. Also anytime you introduce ambient air you are also introducing bugs

You can believe that if you want.....Other's have said the same thing and been proven wrong, down the line. I'm glad you are SO confident about that. But we wouldn't CONSTANTLY have threads like this if that were the case.

I'm fairly confident in my brewing skills, my experience, the health of my yeast, the starters I make, my sanitation practices, the amount of yeast I pitch, and I just can't make the same assertion as you. And I wouldn't make that to any brewer, especially a new one.

Plenty of my beers have taken 72 hours before starting up.

And if you sealed your fermenter up, then there's going to be little ambient air left in the fermenter. Because even with lag time, some of the yeasties ARE going to be reproducing, and producing co2, which is going to be filling the space, voiding the 02 out of the airlock or a seam (whether we see bubbling or not) so there's not going to be any "nasty" ambient air in their to worry about.

I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse with you.

 

[kryolla]

You can believe that if you want.....Other's have said the same thing and been proven wrong, down the line. I'm glad you are SO confident about that. But we wouldn't CONSTANTLY have threads like this if that were the case.

I'm fairly confident in my brewing skills, my experience, the health of my yeast, the starters I make, my sanitation practices, the amount of yeast I pitch, and I just can't make the same assertion as you. And I wouldn't make that to any brewer, especially a new one.

Plenty of my beers have taken 72 hours before starting up.

And if you sealed your fermenter up, then there's going to be little ambient air left in the fermenter. Because even with lag time, some of the yeasties ARE going to be reproducing, and producing co2, which is going to be filling the space, voiding the 02 out of the airlock or a seam (whether we see bubbling or not) so there's not going to be any "nasty" ambient air in their to worry about.

I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse with you.

I must be doing something right if a majority of my beers take off within 24 hrs. Are you saying that anytime post boil your beer NEVER comes into contact with ambient air.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

My 2 cents:

If you've been monitoring it and seen no signs of fermentation then you don't need to take a hydro sample. It's not fermenting. Wasted time/beer imo (although admittedly, not much of either).

Most homebrew has some amount of contamination, that's just a fact of homebrewing life. Usually it's not enough to ruin the beer. Sometimes it's just enough to make the beer taste a little 'off' to a good taster but many people won't notice.

72 hours is too long for me and my beers almost never take that long to start. I don't even like 24 hours and the vast majority of my beers take off well within 24 hours (usually within 12). Once it gets in the~72 hour neighborhood I start taking action, usually just pitching a packet of dry. This is really the main reason I have dry yeast on-hand (and also why I end up having to use up 'old' dry yeast, because this almost never happens).

Yeast health is imperative.

But in any case, I think all us dudes can agree that the red-headed twin penthouse pets wearing garter belts and fishnet stockings, with Irish accents, calling us "master luv gun," serving our homebrew to us is about as good as it gets (I prefer North Carolina accents but w/e). If I had that, I bet 72 hour lag times wouldn't bother me so much.

 

[hal2814]

I guess I'd wait a week, because unless I'm in a hurry that's usually the first I'll take a reading. I haven't used an airlock in a while so I wouldn't notice any other signs.

 

[GarrettLaneBC]

Yikes, this thread has become a bit of a flame war. I don't want to fan the flames, but this seems like a good place to share my experience.

A few brews ago, I sanitized everything as usual, brewed as usual, sprinkled notty as usual, and put the bucket in my brew closet (67-68F) as usual. I usually get activity (yes, airlock activity) within 1-2 days. This time I did not. Even though I'm not very active with posting on this forum, I read it every day and I knew not to panic, so I just waited. Well a week went by with still no external activity (bubbles, smell, etc) so I decided to pop the top to look for kausen and to take a hydro sample. No signs of krausen, only a thick yeasty sludge on the top of the brew with 2 small dots of mold. I took a gravity sample and it was spot on my OG. So I did what any good brewer would do... dump it. Just kidding. I sanitized a small spoon and my brew spoon. I scooped out the mold spots and gave the wort a gentle stir to get the thick stuff on top incorporated. After that fermentation kicked off within 12 hours and proceeded as usual from there. I can only assume the yeast had hydrated themselves on top of the wort, but for some unknown reason never fell into suspension. Its a tough one to explain, but it happened.

Perhaps you can point out where I went wrong, perhaps this story carries no value. I'm not trying to prove a point or disprove anyone else's. I'm just sharing my story when the yeast did let me down and what I did to fix it.

As for the OP's question: how long would I wait? I would wait 4 days to a week. Then, upon hydro confirmation of no activity, I would give the wort a gentle swirl or stir and maybe raise the temp a touch depending on what temp you are sitting at. After another day or 2 of no activity after that, I would consider pitching another packet of yeast.

 

[redalert]

I think it depends on factors like how much yeast was pitched, O.G., temp, etc. I mean if you pitch say 1000 yeast cells which is a very small number won't they eventually reproduce to ferment the wort though taking much more time than pitching 1 billion cells?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I mean if you pitch say 1000 yeast cells which is a very small number won't they eventually reproduce to ferment the wort though taking much more time than pitching 1 billion cells?

Not if they run out of the nutrients required to make more cell walls. They can only 'bud' so many times on a given amount of nutrients/oxygen.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I would wait a minimum of 72 hours before I took a grav reading.....It's that simple.

And I have never had a beer EVER need me to re-pitch it. But after 72 hours, I would then consider adding yeast.

But like I have said here, the yeast have never let me down, even when I didn't make starters, used old yeast, yadda yadda yadda. That's why I give the answers I do, that's why I write the blogs I do. Based on mine, and other's experiences. I've been doing this for quite awhile now, and I've not been let down by the yeasties, ever.

Thanks Revvy.

This is exactly what I was looking for.
The fact that you have never had to re-pitch is very telling and a testament to just how resilient the little yeasties are.

Sorry folks, I really didn't mean to start a flame war with anyone or between anyone.

 

[david_42]

I'll ditto Revvy. 72 hours would be the demarcation, but I've never hit it. The only times I've repitched was to dry out a batch or kick a stuck fermentation.

 

[japhroaig]

One time I brewed a 5 gallon batch of stout, transferred it to a bucket, pitched the yeast, sealed the lid/airlock, and didn't see anything happen for seven days.

I opened the bucket thinking I'd just wasted five gallons, but low and behold it had completely fermented dry! Turns out the lid wasn't quite as sealed as I thought it was

That being said, pitching with live and active yeast cakes has completely removed any doubt about the health of my yeast. That stuff takes off in like six hours tops. Now, I'll just put my flameproof suit back on...

 

[Homercidal]

Geez, after 3 days I'd just pitch. I mean, sure there may be some viable yeast in there, but the point of pitching the correct amount of yeast is to get it going good and healthy as fast as possible, right? So decide if the $2-4 new packet of yeast is worth it for that batch of beer.


Chances are it will get going eventually, as Revvy says. It's all a matter of patience.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I appreciate everyone's feedback... so here is the rest of the story.

The brew I referenced is a 10ga batch fermenting in a sanke keg using a Sanke Fermenter from Derrin at BrewersHardware. It is inside a kegorator that I now use as a ferm cabinet. I have a piece of vinyl tubing sticking out the top of the tower with an airlock in it and the other end of the tubing is attached to the fermenter.

I can see the airlock without opening the door and the cabinet is pretty much sealed up. I have had occasion to ferment in a bucket and not get a good seal so no airlock activity does not excite me. However, normally if I have a leak, because the cabinet is sealed, there is a nice strong smell inside.

When I got home today I saw no airlock activity and had no hint (by odor) of activity inside the cabinet.
I attached a co2 line to push a sample out and the problem became clear. I had a leak. I adjusted the o-ring on the fermenter and got the sample.
OG was 1.053, current SG 1.042. Airlock was bubbling away before I finished cleaning up.

I still have no clue why there was no odor inside the cabinet, guess that's another story.

The idea of waiting up to a week for activity saved me a trip to the LHBS... thanks again for all your input.

Revvy, thanks for pushing me to keep the faith in the power of the yeasties!