How is all grain better than partial mashing?

[NCBeernut]

I think you're confusing partial mash with extract with steeping grains.

No. I'm talking about partial mashing, but it applies even more to extract. Did you even read the post?

 

[OLDBREW]

Just like maltsters producing different flavored malts in malted grain. When compared to other maltsters, they taste different. The same goes with extracts when comparing fermentables and flavors from one manufacture to another.
When extract brewing, there are a few specialty malts that need no mashing. You can steep these and make good beers.

Partial mashing allows you to use specialty grains that need to be mashed, to convert the starches to sugar. As I mentioned before, it will also freshen up the extract. Say FRESHNESS!
A partial mash is the same as doing all grain, but is smaller. Mini/Partial, All Grain mashing are the same process, if you can do one, you can brew an all grain beer from scratch.

As far as entering a contest using extract.. there really should be separate category's for extract brewers. The hardest part of the brewing process is already done for you by professional brewers. All you need to do is add water, hops, and stir this brew.
A very pale brew like a pilsner, or lager, are the hardest brews to make. Any flaw in your mash, lautering techniques, will show up in the finished product when brewing from scratch.
Somone entering with really fresh LME or DME, has the advantage over an all grain brewer unless the brewer is a very experienced brewer.

Years ago you were stuck with pale or dark, hopped or unhopped LME. The cans would sit on the shelf a long time before ever being used. Making beer with those extracts were not the best tasting. Today there is every variety of base malt extract being used (including wheat and pils malt), and is kept pretty fresh.

When a new brewer starts out with extract/w specialty malts, I teach them to use their specialty malts like they need mashing. This way it teaches them the process of how to mash before they dive into partial or all grain brewing.

 

[markg388]

I get that there are extracts labeled 'pilsner', but the results just don't cut the mustard if you're looking for the rich, yet subtle taste of a pilsner-dominant beer (helles, kolsch ect.). The pilsner extract I tried darkened the beer, and also made a helles taste like kokanee. Maybe if you have a good connection at Weyermann Maltings and get some premium, uber high-quality, extra fresh pilsner extract that I've never seen before the results will be comparable. Suitable for hoppy beers and beers with plenty of specialty malts I'd say, but still inferior. Even if PM only inferior in a small handfull of styles, I think it still counts.

I can make an award winning chicken soup with canned chicken broth, but I will still make an even better award winning chicken soup from scratch using chicken feet & vegetables to make a stock first.

Ahhh, I love splitting hairs in the morning.

 

[ghpeel]

Yeah, I like using the "canned chicken broth" analogy when talking to new brewers about extract. In fact, a friend of mine who cooks EVERYTHING from scratch asked me to show her how to brew, and after that analogy, she decided to suck up the learning curve and jump straight to all grain. Wish I had done that from the start.

 

[jfr1111]

People's perception of taste are heavily influenced by what they see and expect. To all the PM naysayers, a blind test would be interesting. Very interesting. I remember reading on here about a BCJP judge almost commenting on the excellent decoction taste from a Pilsner during a competition. The guy finally decided not to write it on the scoresheet since he didn't usually talk about technique on it.

The beer won best of show. It was also all extract.

 

[iijakii]

What does AG have over PM?

It's more fun. That's the main thing. More research, more planning, more tweaking. More fun!

 

[OLDBREW]

I get that there are extracts labeled 'pilsner', but the results just don't cut the mustard if you're looking for the rich, yet subtle taste of a pilsner-dominant beer (helles, kolsch ect.). The pilsner extract I tried darkened the beer, and also made a helles taste like kokanee. Maybe if you have a good connection at Weyermann Maltings and get some premium, uber high-quality, extra fresh pilsner extract that I've never seen before the results will be comparable. Suitable for hoppy beers and beers with plenty of specialty malts I'd say, but still inferior. Even if PM only inferior in a small handfull of styles, I think it still counts.

I can make an award winning chicken soup with canned chicken broth, but I will still make an even better award winning chicken soup from scratch using chicken feet & vegetables to make a stock first.

Ahhh, I love splitting hairs in the morning.

the point is.. the LME "you used" didn't do it for you, but there are so many other manufactures now that may have the flavor/color profile you seek. If you can get it fresh, then it may be better then the wort you can make from scratch when trying to do a pilsner.
All the chicken broths you can buy, don't all taste the same. You try, then find the one that does meet your preference, then you stick with that brand. They do sell gourmet stocks that will compare to any home made stocks

 

[ChshreCat]

This will probably piss some folks off, but I have to say it...

If you can't make a great beer doing partial mash, it's more a reflection of your skills as a brewer than it is on the technique.

 

[OLDBREW]

People's perception of taste are heavily influenced by what they see and expect. To all the PM naysayers, a blind test would be interesting. Very interesting. I remember reading about here about a BCJP judge almost commenting on the excellent decoction taste from a Pilsner during a competition. The guy finally decided not to write it on the scoresheet since he didn't usually talk about technique on it.

The beer won best of show. It was also all extract.

that is one reason why I think there should be style entries for extracts.

 

[ChshreCat]

that is one reason why I think there should be style entries for extracts.

Because you can't taste the difference, so judges need to be warned it's extract so they can score it lower?

 

[markg388]

Remember that not all beer competitions and judges are created equal, I just won best wheat beer with a dunkel lager a couple of weeks back.

If someone wins a competition with a PM or extract beer, more power to him/her I say, the addition of extract to my brews have always detracted from the beer's subtlety. I think that's the word I'm looking for the describes the primary difference between PM and AG, subtlety. There are little taste elements that base malts offer to beer that get covered up easily by things like hops, specialty grains and intensely flavored yeasts. To be fair, I'm a guy arguing from the point of view where most of my beers don't even have specialty grains or late addition hops in them. Even then, all-grain is only slighty better IMO.

 

[shamrockdoc]

This will probably piss some folks off, but I have to say it...

If you can't make a great beer doing partial mash, it's more a reflection of your skills as a brewer than it is on the technique.

Hence learning how to brew with these methods before you jump into 20 gal AG brews still making sub-par beers.


Or am I missing the elitist undertones in your comment

 

[ChshreCat]

Hence learning how to brew with these methods before you jump into 20 gal AG brews still making sub-par beers.


Or am I missing the elitist undertones in your comment

Nope. Quite the opposite. More a reaction to the elitist undertones of others' posts. People's posts that partial mash tastes bad is more a reflection of their beers and not the partial mash method. If you can make a great beer all grain, you can make one just as great doing partial mash with good, quality ingredients.

If you're dumping an old, dusty can of extract into the boil, that's not going to taste good. Same as if you do all grain with stale 2-row that's been sitting out for way too long.

There's nothing that makes AG taste automatically better than PM beyond what might make one AG beer taste better than another AG beer. So if you brewed PM and it tasted bad, and you knew you had good ingredients, then you might want to look at your own process rather than claiming that it was the partial mash's fault.

 

[OLDBREW]

Because you can't taste the difference, so judges need to be warned it's extract so they can score it lower?

I would put extract use as a lesser level of the brewers ability. Like when a brewer uses a short cut of using extract to reach a higher OG, compared to a brewer that achives that specific gravity from scratch. So many inperfections come out from the making of the wort. To dump a can or pouch of instant wort should not be considered into the same classification as brewing from scratch, or AG as it were.

 

[ChshreCat]

I would put extract use as a lesser level of the brewers ability. Like when a brewer uses a short cut of using extract to reach a higher OG, compared to a brewer that achives that specific gravity from scratch. So many inperfections come out from the making of the wort. To dump a can or pouch of instant wort should not be considered into the same classification as brewing from scratch, or AG as it were.

But the argument could be taken even further. Just ripping open a pouch of liquid yeast is much easier than capturing wild yeast and cultivating your own strain. At one point is something a shortcut and shouldn't be allowed? And if the arguments that people are making that adding any amount of extract to your brew makes it taste bad are correct, then that would be reflected in the judges scores anyway.

edit: I think we're wandering off the OP's question. A bunch of us ranting at each other isn't going to help (even if ARE doing it politely), so I'm going to bow out of the thread. If the debate needs to continue, we can do it in another thread.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Ugh, thank Cthulu nobody has referenced the extract "twang"

Oh, wait..... crap

 

[Northcalais40]

It's better if and only if you prefer to taste only the fruits of your own labor, making beer the way it has been made by immemorial custom since the dawn of time. You might make your own brew by any method and we'll all agree it is awesome or average or less than desirable or what have you. At the end of the day what you have is beer. I for one can't stand the whole beer/wine tasting rhetoric. It all ends up making me think how pretentious it is. Please be aware that I am aware that I'm the ^sshole. I have a low tolerance for bull crap.

 

[markg388]

thanks for playing everyone, i had fun with this thread