How fast to chil?

[bracconiere]

someone mentioned cold break in another thread, i've been brewing for 15 years. and never get much cold break...i use 50' of 3/8, i think, it's been a while, copper to bring 10 gallons down to 80f in about 20 or so minutes....barley any cold break, and my beers are always cloudy...i don't mind, but it'd be nice to brew a clear beer..

 

[Jag75]

Do you use whrilfoc?

 

[HB_ATL73]

Whirlflock seems to work well for me. Also, a great way to chill that is easy is a close looped system using a fountain pump. Have you ever tried that?

 

[Jag75]

10 gallons brought down to 80f from boiling temp in 20 min isnt too bad imo.

 

[bracconiere]

10 gallons brought down to 80f from boiling temp in 20 min isnt too bad imo.

that's what i think! damn, i've never even heard of whirfloc, what is it? (been brewing 15 years but only making an ass out myself here for 1, lol)


edit: being i'm not that inept....i looked it up and i have tried irish moss....(although , not in 10 years)

 

[Jag75]

I use whrilfoc all the time except with NEIPAs . When I chill the wort it breaks down and the solids sink to the bottom. I dont know if you can see it but when I check OG I put it in the fridge to get ut to about 70 the cold break gunk sinks to the bottom.

 

[SEndorf]

Here's what cold break looks like.
One whirlfloc tablet per 5 G about 10-15 from end of boil.
Looks like egg drop soup until it settles down in the fermenter.

 

[bracconiere]

kinda off-topic in my own thread....but, i have almost the exact same IR therm, and plastic spoon....lol

but yes i can see the cold break in your pic....and your wort looks clear, so for a 10 gal batch the best way to remove something like that would be something like this....

https://www.ntotank.com/15gallon-ac...Ca70aY7iusjdC5R0ccegjj4ZhhYlWdrxoCpvQQAvD_BwE

 

[bracconiere]

Here's what cold break looks like.
One whirlfloc tablet per 5 G about 10-15 from end of boil.
Looks like egg drop soup until it settles down in the fermenter.

View attachment 657855

you guys have convinced me to try irish moss/whirfloc again, i don't get anything like that in my fermenter....and i could use that tank as a seperatory funnel....just build a stand to sit above my fermenter, dump the break, then slide my fermenter under it and dump it.....


edit: (i guess i could just get a black one, use it as a conical....but first i want to see if whirfloc works, irish moss didn't before, but maybe in pill form? lol)

 

[day_trippr]

If using dried be sure to add the irish moss with 10-15 minutes left in the boil. It needs the time to gelatinized and disperse.
If you add it too late you'll find a pile of lumpy brown snot left in your kettle.

You can also hydrate the IM in advance...

Cheers!

 

[SEndorf]

FWIW.. I found Irish Moss to be ineffective, and whirlfloc highly effective.
Go figure since they're both are essentially the same thing in different form.

 

[day_trippr]

Usage is different: Whirlfloc tablets dissolve quickly. IM doesn't...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

you guys have convinced me to try irish moss/whirfloc again, i don't get anything like that in my fermenter....and i could use that tank as a seperatory funnel....just build a stand to sit above my fermenter, dump the break, then slide my fermenter under it and dump it.....


edit: (i guess i could just get a black one, use it as a conical....but first i want to see if whirfloc works, irish moss didn't before, but maybe in pill form? lol)

Break is usually left behind in the kettle, it's kinda hard to strain it out from underneath the cleared wort, without wasting a ton of wort.

I sometimes dump the whole lot (6 gallons) into a fermenter bucket, let it stand for a few hours, especially when bringing the temp down to pitching temps.
I then pour the clear beer off the top into another bucket fermenter leaving the trubby bottom layer of settled break and wort behind. That 1/2 - 1 gallon of achy breaky wort doesn't get thrown out, it gets processed/clarified and used. Most is usually pasteurized and added back to the fermenter.

I've only used Irish Moss (the regular variety, not the "super" one) from the beginning, 11 years ago. Mixed results, like you noticed, not overly convincing all the time.

A few (6?) years ago I read somewhere to pre-hydrate it 10-15' before adding. I just scoop a 1/4 cup of boiling wort out the kettle and add the 1/2 tsp (for a 5 gallon batch) of Irish Moss to that. It swells up and becomes a gelatinous substance. That goo gets added 10' before FO. Pre-hydration does seem to help and coagulate the proteins better (quicker), I can see it.

When I want especially clear wort, I let the chilled kettle sit for a few hours and siphon amazingly clear wort from the top into a bucket fermenter, tilting the kettle toward the end, leaving the trubby wort behind on the bottom for further processing (filtering).

 

[bracconiere]

A few (6?) years ago I read somewhere to pre-hydrate it 10' before adding. I just scoop a 1/4 cup of boiling wort out the kettle and add the 1/2 tsp (for a 5 gallon batch) of Irish Moss to that. It swells up and becomes a gelatinous substance. That goo gets added 10' before FO. Pre-hydration does seem to help and coagulate the proteins better (quicker), I can see it.

kinda like tempering a egg custard? or like making a rue and coating the flour with oil.....(i apreciate the help guys, if i'm ever able to make clear beer i'll cream myself, lol....after 15 years i got my .99 cent twelver, now i'm actually thinking about seeing how good a .99 twelve pack can be )

 

[Vale71]

Here's what cold break looks like.
One whirlfloc tablet per 5 G about 10-15 from end of boil.
Looks like egg drop soup until it settles down in the fermenter.

No, it isn't. If you can see it with the naked eye then it's clearly hot break which does not turn into cold break just because you cool it down.
Cold break particles average 1-1.5 microns in size, that's about 1/10th the size of a yeast cell. With the naked eye cold break can only be perceived as haze.

 

[bracconiere]

FWIW.. I found Irish Moss to be ineffective, and whirlfloc highly effective.
Go figure since they're both are essentially the same thing in different form.

like powdered sugar and granulated, or pickling salt and kosher.....i'm going to try them, probably next week...

 

[bracconiere]

No, it isn't. If you can see it with the naked eye then it's clearly hot break which does not turn into cold break just because you cool it down.
Cold break particles average 1-1.5 microns in size, that's about 1/10th the size of a yeast cell. With the naked eye cold break can only be perceived as haze.

that's what i get once it's cooled down...haze, it's crystal clear when i put the immersion chiller in, and i can see the hot break swirling around....but even it goes away after it's cool....

 

[SEndorf]

No, it isn't. If you can see it with the naked eye then it's clearly hot break which does not turn into cold break just because you cool it down.
Cold break particles average 1-1.5 microns in size, that's about 1/10th the size of a yeast cell. With the naked eye cold break can only be perceived as haze.

Heh.. So I'm confusing my "breaks"?
That picture is after right after filling my (then) BMB fermenters from a counterflow chiller. The "clumps" dissipate after about 10 minutes.
I've always thought cold break was the shmutz that comes out of solution when rapidly chilling wort. It certainly is visible to the naked eye. Whichever break you want to call it, it has never adversely affected the clarity of the beer.

 

[Jag75]

Ok so I guess I'm confused as well. I thought the cold break was the coagulated gunk that binds together and drops to the bottom of your kettle as you cool your wort.

 

[day_trippr]

This should be interesting. I'm ready

 

[Robert65]

Using kettle finings, cold break will coagulate into visible size clumps that will precipitate quickly so you can rack clear beer to the fermenter. Otherwise, as noted, it is so fine a particulate it just looks like haze.

The reason Whirlfloc is so much more effective than raw Irish moss, is that it is refined from Irish moss to contain only the particular type of kappa carrageenan that actually does the job. Irish moss contains a wide range of carrageenans (and other stuff) in unpredictable proportions, so it's a crapshoot. Every once in a while it might do something.

 

[day_trippr]

Admittedly I've always gotten my IM from the same source, but over ~15 years it's never failed to do what it's supposed to do. But it does require more than a last-minute plunk in the kettle and I suspect those who understand this are in a tiny minority...

Cheers!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Using kettle finings, cold break will coagulate into visible size clumps that will precipitate quickly so you can rack clear beer to the fermenter. Otherwise, as noted, it is so fine a particulate it just looks like haze.

The reason Whirlfloc is so much more effective than raw Irish moss, is that it is refined from Irish moss to contain only the particular type of kappa carrageenan that actually does the job. Irish moss contains a wide range of carrageenans (and other stuff) in unpredictable proportions, so it's a crapshoot. Every once in a while it might do something.

I'm with @Vale71 on this one. The floating chunks are not cold break. The visible clumps are hot break, and the floating bits people see are far more in volume than actual amount of cold break. With a well designed whirlpool and kettle finings at workable pH so that it settles in the kettle and none to the fermenter, and a single pass through a chiller of some form (counterflow or plate/heatex) straight into the fermenter (so that virtually no hot break but all cold break goes into fermenter), you get a *very* small amount of actual cold break settling in the bottom cone of a conical below clean yeast. We're talking a few quarts in large commercial batches. Homebrew scale its barely anything at all. Almost as much volume in hot break clumps are formed in 10 gallons as actual cold break in 60 barrels.

 

[Robert65]

I use an immersion chiller and gentle stirring, so I have the entertainment of watching the entire sequence. At the end of the boil, I have clear wort with egg drop soup like hot break. As the wort cools, it becomes hazy (like chill haze in beer) with the invisibly fine cold break. At an even lower temperature the Whirlfloc kicks in, and that breaks into pinhead size flocs in wort that is clear again. This settles firmly on top of the hot break, which is on top of the hops, when I rack. I also use gallotannin and PVPP (gallotannin at 7 minutes, Whirlfloc at 5, PVPP at 3) so I have a very firmly packed sediment of anything that otherwise possibly could be precipitated at any time downstream.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Ahh, as long as you're not referring to the egg drop soup as cold break as so many others do

 

[SEndorf]

Ahh, as long as you're not referring to the egg drop soup as cold break as so many others do

I read it on the internet, so it has to be true...


https://beerandbrewing.com/cold-break/

Cold break is the catch-all name for all of the crud that precipitates out of solution when you rapidly cool wort after the boil. A good cold break looks like miso soup or egg drop soup, with lots of little flecks floating around within otherwise clear wort.

 

[SEndorf]

From the famous Holin wah Australian Chinese restaurant……...

 

[Vale71]

Unfortunately lots of people write stuff on the 'net without having the foggiest idea what they're talking about. It's one of the downsides of the Internet being totally open to anyone.

Hot break and cold break are two completely different protein fractions. Hot break proteins coagulate and coalesce into big chunks when the wort is heated above a certain temperature. Cold break proteins coagulate but do not coalesce into microscopic particles as the wort is rapidly chilled. The faster the temperature drops the more complete cold break formation is. Separation of cold break material is quite difficult and requires either a modern centrifuge or a more outdated flotation tank.

If dumped in the fermenter hot break material will drop to the bottom pretty quickly, cold break material will mostly be absorbed by the yeast as soon as the wort is pitched and will drop with the yeast as fermentation ends and/or the beer is filtered.

 

[SEndorf]

Thanks for the detailed clarification !

 

[Robert65]

Separation of cold break material is quite difficult and requires either a modern centrifuge or a more outdated flotation tank.

If dumped in the fermenter hot break material will drop to the bottom pretty quickly, cold break material will mostly be absorbed by the yeast as soon as the wort is pitched and will drop with the yeast as fermentation ends and/or the beer is filtered.

If dumped in the fermenter, hot break will carry lipids which will accelerate staling, and cold break will negatively impact foam and, by adhering to the yeast cells, inhibit fermentation. Both should be removed as completely as possible.

Cold break can be removed, like hot break, by use of carrageenan based kettle finings -- provided that you don't have an arrangement where whirlpool precedes HEX and the chilled wort is sent to the fermenter without further separation, but rather that chilling and settling are allowed to proceed in the kettle before decanting the wort to the fermenter. In other words, homebrewers using immersion chillers are at a distinct advantage.

 

[mongoose33]

If dumped in the fermenter, hot break will carry lipids which will accelerate staling, and cold break will negatively impact foam and, by adhering to the yeast cells, inhibit fermentation. Both should be removed as completely as possible.

Cold break can be removed, like hot break, by use of carrageenan based kettle finings -- provided that you don't have an arrangement where whirlpool precedes HEX and the chilled wort is sent to the fermenter without further separation, but rather that chilling and settling are allowed to proceed in the kettle before decanting the wort to the fermenter. In other words, homebrewers using immersion chillers are at a distinct advantage.

I've been trying to find the optimal way to chill using my counterflow chiller. My typical operation is to add Whirlfloc at 15 minutes, then a couple minutes before flameout I'll start recirculating the boiling wort through my CF chiller and back out so as to create a whirlpool in the kettle. (Boiling wort to sanitize everything in the loop).

Then, I've tried two variations: one is to recirculate after starting the water until the entire kettle has cooled to about 70 degrees (takes about 15-20 minutes), then proceed to rack to fermenter. The other is to recirculate until the wort exiting the chiller has reached 70 (thermometer at exit point), at which point I direct that into the fermenter and not back into the kettle--I move the hose, in other words.

Do you think one or the other is preferable?