How fast to chil?

[Robert65]

I've been trying to find the optimal way to chill using my counterflow chiller. My typical operation is to add Whirlfloc at 15 minutes, then a couple minutes before flameout I'll start recirculating the boiling wort through my CF chiller and back out so as to create a whirlpool in the kettle. (Boiling wort to sanitize everything in the loop).

Then, I've tried two variations: one is to recirculate after starting the water until the entire kettle has cooled to about 70 degrees (takes about 15-20 minutes), then proceed to rack to fermenter. The other is to recirculate until the wort exiting the chiller has reached 70 (thermometer at exit point), at which point I direct that into the fermenter and not back into the kettle--I move the hose, in other words.

Do you think one or the other is preferable?

I couldn't say, as I use an immersion chiller, gently stirring and recirculating ice water below 100°F. I'd think you could just try comparing the clarity of wort to the fermenter using each method. It seems that the first involves more opportunity to isolate break in the kettle. OTOH maybe more recirculation of the full wort volume just offers more opportunity to mechanically break up the flocs again. To me, that potential is but one reason I don't care to use a CFC.

FWIW I chill to 50°F in the kettle (lager brewer here) and then let it settle for about 30 minutes before racking to the fermenter, but I don't have a whirlpool to segregate the break during chilling. I just rack from above after settling -- if using pellets. If using whole cone hops, I skip the lengthy settling and rack from under the hop bed after a few minutes settling. They make a wonderful filter medium for this purpose.

 

[Mer-man]

Hey it's ok it's ok, you're welcome. I'm just an ordinary brewing guy. Happy to help spur a discussion.

My understanding is that hot break is the egg drop soup protein coagulation that happens in chunks visible to the eye. As you can see them, you can realize that such mass will precipitate ASAP, e.g. when one makes a whirlpool.

Cold break is why we use kettle finings, because the carageenan binds with oppositely-charged proteins and thus is dense enough to precipitate. Cold break does also make your chilled wort cloudy in appearance, but if you can wait it out in the kettle, it will precipitate and leave you pretty clear wort.

I use a Stout CFC (and recirculate into the kettle while chilling) and very slowly pump about .75L into the drain to clear it of cold break precipitate before racking to my fermenter.

So if you were to chill and then dump everything into the FV, you'd have hot and cold break. I don't really feel like quoting the professional brewing textbook I'm reading (Kunze 5th ed) but hot break is not something we want. You'll note that even American craft brewers do a whirlpool -- that's to separate the hot break. But most run then through a plate heat exchanger and that means your cold break ends up in your FV. They can dump it once the active yeast is in suspension.

For me, I try to KISS and chill with a floating SS pan on the wort, let it settle so all the undesireable stuff is in the kettle, and then rack (minus the aforementioned waste discharge) to FV with clear wort (knowing it contains adequate cold break) onto happy little yeast.

 

[Robert65]

They can dump it once the active yeast is in suspension.

This is a key point. If you are using a CCV and can dump the cold break there, good! But be sure to do so. If your fermenter will not allow this, it is then advisable to settle in the kettle and rack clear wort. Even Kunze (who shall not be quoted directly) notes that these days, cold break is not *usually* separated before sending wort to the FV. But that is precisely because, in contrast to the traditional vessels, breweries now *usually* employ CCVs, and do dump trub. Formerly, the common practice was to employ a "settling tank" (or flotation tank) where cold break was separated before clear wort was sent to the fermenter, or a "starting tank," just another FV, which combined this function with pitching and aerating the wort, and the beer would be racked off the trub to a second FV once active fermentation had set in. Homebrewers will simply have to find a method of cold break separation that works in their particular system. Using kettle finings and settling in the kettle at least involves one less potentially oxidative transfer than improvising some sort of settling/ starting tank arrangement (I know, I've been there!)

 

[lablover]

I didn't see that anyone is recommending you cold crash the final product and use a little gelatin to fine your beer. I get very clear beer in a week or two when I do this.

 

[Robert65]

I didn't see that anyone is recommending you cold crash the final product and use a little gelatin to fine your beer. I get very clear beer in a week or two when I do this.

Two entirely different things. We are talking about separating haze active and foam negative proteins, staling lipids, and other substances that will impair fermentation, physical and flavor stability, foam quality, and more, if not removed at the start of the process. You are talking about speeding up the sedimentation of yeast afterwards. Gelatin or other finings are not at all essential to the latter. Simply cooling and giving the beer a bit of time will easily settle out the yeast, without the inevitable oxidation involved with fining.

 

[bracconiere]

I use an immersion chiller and gentle stirring, so I have the entertainment of watching the entire sequence. At the end of the boil, I have clear wort with egg drop soup like hot break. As the wort cools, it becomes hazy (like chill haze in beer) with the invisibly fine cold break. At an even lower temperature the Whirlfloc kicks in, and that breaks into pinhead size flocs in wort that is clear again. This settles firmly on top of the hot break, which is on top of the hops, when I rack. I also use gallotannin and PVPP (gallotannin at 7 minutes, Whirlfloc at 5, PVPP at 3) so I have a very firmly packed sediment of anything that otherwise possibly could be precipitated at any time downstream.

i ordered a 50 pack of whirlfloc tabs.....i'm anxious to see if they work....should find out next week...(exactly what temp is "at even lower"?)

 

[SEndorf]

So.. after all this time I've learned that my post BK chilled wort floaters were actually hot break.
Not sure where to go with this information.
Since that picture was taken (post #7) I have moved to an electric system with a hop screen on the boil kettle dip tube, and a CFC.
The hop screen (from Innovative Homebrew Solutions) is extremely effective but prevents whirlpooling.
Just prior to reaching boil temp, I skim all the thick hot break coagulated goop.
Fermenting in a conical. After cold crash I dump the trub prior to transferring to keg.
All fairly typical procedures. However with a conical, I can no longer "see" the transferred wort.
Any suggestions for improved practices with this setup?

 

[bracconiere]

Just prior to reaching boil temp, I skim all the thick hot break coagulated goop.

i tried skimming a long time ago, no different....but now i'm thinking about trying to fish out the stuff churning in the kettle while it's boiling.....? anyone think that's good or bad? would a strainer even work for that?


(and i've learned that, i do get cold break. i just thought it'd look like hot break....not haze)

 

[CodeSection]

i ordered a 50 pack of whirlfloc tabs.....i'm anxious to see if they work....should find out next week...(exactly what temp is "at even lower"?)

The instructions state adding one tablet to a 10-15 gallons of wort for the final five minutes of the boil. I have been using it since day one and it has really worked well. I'm adding Brewtan-B at the 15 minute mark left in the boil BEFORE adding the whirlfloc tablet...

 

[mongoose33]

The instructions state adding one tablet to a 10-15 gallons of wort for the final five minutes of the boil. I have been using it since day one and it has really worked well. I'm adding Brewtan-B at the 15 minute mark left in the boil BEFORE adding the whirlfloc tablet...

The primary reason for adding BtB at that point is to add it before using a copper immersion chiller, to prevent or at least reduce Fenton reactions that stale/oxidize the wort. I've never read/heard of it influencing how Whirlfloc works, but maybe it does. I always added mine 1 minute before putting the immersion chiller in to sanitize.

 

[balrog]

Thanks for the detailed clarification !

I see what you did there. In a discussion on clarifiers. Snork.

 

[Robert65]

The primary reason for adding BtB at that point is to add it before using a copper immersion chiller, to prevent or at least reduce Fenton reactions that stale/oxidize the wort. I've never read/heard of it influencing how Whirlfloc works, but maybe it does. I always added mine 1 minute before putting the immersion chiller in to sanitize.

It does enhance the effect of Whirlfloc, IME. I guess an analogy would be silica auxiliary finings and isinglass? As soon as you add BTB you see the wort go cloudy as it binds proteins and encourages a fine break, which it seems the Whirlfloc then does a better job of precipitating. Of course gallotannin is often used in the bright tank to precipitate haze active proteins, but upstream seems even better; historically gallotannin has been used alone as a kettle fining agent. All I know is that a regimen of BTB, Whirlfloc, and PVPP leaves a very compact trub in the kettle, and an extremely stable and perfectly bright, chillproof beer.

 

[mongoose33]

It does enhance the effect of Whirlfloc, IME. I guess an analogy would be silica auxiliary finings and isinglass? As soon as you add BTB you see the wort go cloudy as it binds proteins and encourages a fine break, which it seems the Whirlfloc then does a better job of precipitating. Of course gallotannin is often used in the bright tank to precipitate haze active proteins, but upstream seems even better; historically gallotannin has been used alone as a kettle fining agent. All I know is that a regimen of BTB, Whirlfloc, and PVPP leaves a very compact trub in the kettle, and an extremely stable and perfectly bright, chillproof beer.

I'll have to give that a try. I only use BtB in the mash (1 gram), not in the boil. I switched over to all-stainless to avoid any of those copper reactions, so I don't add BtB to the boil any more. Not sure if the BtB in the mash carries over the same way to the boil.

How much BtB do you add to a 5-gallon equivalent batch?

 

[Robert65]

I'll have to give that a try. I only use BtB in the mash (1 gram), not in the boil. I switched over to all-stainless to avoid any of those copper reactions, so I don't add BtB to the boil any more. Not sure if the BtB in the mash carries over the same way to the boil.

How much BtB do you add to a 5-gallon equivalent batch?

I shoot roughly down the middle of the manufacturer's recommended range and go for a rate equivalent to 6g/hL. I don't know if this is optimal, I suppose it should be determined experimentally. I use it mash and boil, and when I eventually replace the copper chiller with SS, I plan to keep the BTB. Can't hurt.

 

[CodeSection]

The primary reason for adding BtB at that point is to add it before using a copper immersion chiller, to prevent or at least reduce Fenton reactions that stale/oxidize the wort. I've never read/heard of it influencing how Whirlfloc works, but maybe it does. I always added mine 1 minute before putting the immersion chiller in to sanitize.

I use:

Brewtan B Calculations:
Boil grams = Boil Gallons x .1618
Mash grams = Total Gallons x .2588

I add it to the boil when there is 15 minutes left in the boil. Here is where it was suggested when to add...http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/brewtan-b-dosing/.

When you were adding it to the boil it sounds like at least you were waiting a minute between BtB and whirlfloc additions as mentioned in the link above. I just wait 10 minutes due to what I read and reasons @Robert65 mentioned.