How do you use your plate chiller?

[storytyme]

So I splurged and went and got the Blichmann Therminator. I've used it for a few batches and I really like it, but I am thinking I can be more efficient with it. I run my hose throw a ice chest full of ice water then into the plate chiller. It still doesn't seem to get it as low as the water temp even when it is throttled way down. So I was thinking since I am recirculating the wort the last 15 min of the boil to sanitize the chiller why not continue that with the flame out and the hose turned on to create a whirlpool and then once the wort is at a low temp I can transfer to the carboy. Is this what everyone does? Should I not do this? Any other ideas from the plate chiller experts out there please chime in. Thanks in advance everyone.

 

[schematix]

wish i had known you were in the market. i'd have given you a really good price on the clogginator i have. only use i've ever found for it is chilling water. anythign else and it clogs.

 

[pbtimmons]

So I splurged and went and got the Blichmann Therminator. I've used it for a few batches and I really like it, but I am thinking I can be more efficient with it. I run my hose throw a ice chest full of ice water then into the plate chiller. It still doesn't seem to get it as low as the water temp even when it is throttled way down. So I was thinking since I am recirculating the wort the last 15 min of the boil to sanitize the chiller why not continue that with the flame out and the hose turned on to create a whirlpool and then once the wort is at a low temp I can transfer to the carboy. Is this what everyone does? Should I not do this? Any other ideas from the plate chiller experts out there please chime in. Thanks in advance everyone.

The process you described is exactly how I used mine initially, and how many others do.

I never had a Therminator, instead I bought a Shirron style 40 plate, so YMMV. I ended up buying a garden hose pump ($150) and would recirculate ice water from a 50 gal trash can and could go from 212 to 70's straight into my fermentor.

Good luck with your plate chiller, it's my experience that they are not designed for heavily hopped beer which is why I had to ditch mine. Again, I never had a Therminator so there's a distinct chance it is not as cloggy as a Shirron.

 

[mongoose33]

Your issue, if I understand your procedure correctly, is that you're putting the "chilled" wort back into the kettle. If that's what you're doing, it's going to take a long time to get the temp down. I believe most people using these types of chillers are directing the output right into the fermenter. Or trying to.

When you push the wort back to the kettle, you lower the overall kettle temp a little bit. And it keeps creeping lower. In essence, you're using it as if it's an immersion chiller, though it's not.

I have a counterflow chiller I just bought, and until I can get things set up so I can monitor temps as they come out of the chiller, I've had to return the "chilled" wort to the fermenter. With about 5.75 gallons in the kettle, it takes me more than 25 minutes to get it to the low 70s. When I get my temp monitoring in place, I expect that time to drop to 6 or 7 minutes.

 

[FunkedOut]

wish i had known you were in the market. i'd have given you a really good price on the clogginator i have. only use i've ever found for it is chilling water. anythign else and it clogs.

What cloggs it? Hop material or break material?
Do you use a sock or spyder for your hops?
If yes, what size mesh?

Sorry for the mini-hijack, storytyme.
It’s still relevant.

Back to original topic...
@mongoose33 i can’t imagine that the chilling performance suffers much from returning the wort to the kettle.
Not speaking from experience here.
Seems like you have to get the heat out of the full volume no matter where it’s directed.

The only savings I can see in my mind’s eye is that if not returning the wort to the kettle, you won’t need to pull the heat out of the kettle itself.


With my immersion chiller, I have to make 15 gallons of hot water to get the wort to pitching temps.
The 1st 10 gallons start out at about 85*F.
The last 5 gallons start out at about 40*F.

 

[mongoose33]

@mongoose33 i can’t imagine that the chilling performance suffers much from returning the wort to the kettle.
Not speaking from experience here.
Seems like you have to get the heat out of the full volume no matter where it’s directed.

Well, I certainly can always stand to learn more, but here's a funny thing about the way mine works: it draws the temp down fairly fast from boiling to about 160 degrees. Just a very few minutes--maybe 3 or so, I haven't timed it exactly. But the close the wort is to the final temp I want, the slower the pace at which that entire batch cools.

We know that the greater the difference in temps between the water and the wort, the more heat is pulled out into the water. And when a batch of wort--5.75 gallons for a batch, say--is down to 80 degrees, the difference is not that great between the wort and the water. So cooling slows.

But if I'm not mixing the cooled wort back into the kettle; the length of time should be limited to the flow of the wort.

**********

I'm hopefully going to get a chance to test this today. The fittings that allow me to monitor temp of the chilled wort as it comes out of the chiller will let me control what goes into the fermenter, and then we'll be able to see.

I'll report back either way with what I learn.

 

[November]

I bake my plate chiller to sanitize it. When it's time to cool, I fill my MLT with ice and water and hook this up to the water in on my PC. I run the wort through a trub filter, which I probably don't need since I whirlpool but I have it so I use it.

I cool in a single pass by monitoring the temp of the beer as it flows into the fermenter. I adjust temp by changing the flow on the wort pump.

I capture the waste water into the HLT and use it to clean.

I use 40 pounds of ice for a half bbl batch and I cool to lager temps.

Hope that helps give you an idea of another way to do it.

 

[schematix]

What cloggs it? Hop material or break material?

Yes.

Do you use a sock or spyder for your hops?

No i found the hop character was ruined using a spider.

 

[FunkedOut]

@November how long does that single pass take (on average)?
how big is it? area and number of plates?

thanks for the data point.
I’m in the market for a chiller and trying to decide plate or counterflow.

 

[November]

@November how long does that single pass take (on average)?
how big is it? area and number of plates?

thanks for the data point.
I’m in the market for a chiller and trying to decide plate or counterflow.

It's a Duda Diesel B3-36A 40 plate. The surface area is 1.37m². I put triclamps on it so it's easy to take off the rig and toss in the oven.

I think it takes about 10 to 15 minutes or so. I'm brewing right now so I'll time it and report back.

 

[storytyme]

Thank you everyone for all the tips. I was recirculating the wort back into the kettle just for a brief period for a few reasons.

1) To create a whirlpool
2) Steep hops added at flameout
3) Bump the temp down a little so the first wort into the fermentor is a bit cooler.

#3 is what made me start thinking about it. If you have everything set up, turn on the water and immediately go into the fermentor that first few quarts will be much warmer than the last few (or atleast I think it would). Doing the whirlpool thing I was thinking I could close this gap. Just didn't know if my thinking was correct.

It seemed running the water through the ice and into the plate chiller didn't work as well as I thought. I like the pump idea. Anyone have pics of their set-up?

Always trying to improve and get more efficient with this hobby. That is why it is so fun!

 

[Blazinlow86]

Have you considered using a counterflow at first while whirlpooling etc then after your whirlpool while letting it setting adding the plate chiller? From the description you posted I think you should have got a cfc. As others have stated plate chillers are meant for single pass chilling into the fermentator. Whirlpooling thru them is pretty much a sure fire clog. Cheers

 

[November]

I whirlpool without going through the PC, to accomplish the same points you mention. In my mind going through the PC to whirlpool defeats the purrpose since you'll probably clog the PC before you get the muck to drop into a cone.

I'm just starting to boil. When I hook mine up I'll snap some pics if I remember.

 

[VVbrewery]

I'm finishing up upgrading my system which will include a plate chiller also. Obviously there's two schools of thought on this on this.
Here's some more info: https://homebrewacademy.com/plate-chiller-methods/

 

[storytyme]

Have you considered using a counterflow at first while whirlpooling etc then after your whirlpool while letting it setting adding the plate chiller? From the description you posted I think you should have got a cfc. As others have stated plate chillers are meant for single pass chilling into the fermentator. Whirlpooling thru them is pretty much a sure fire clog. Cheers

No I for sure wanted the plate chiller. I have never really whirlpooled but thought it would be logical since I am sanitizing the chiller by recirculating the wort. *note on that....my march pump makes some weird noises with that hot of liquid flowing through it.

So besides circulating the wort to sanitize, I heard the oven method. What exactly is that and how do you do it? Would that make the chiller plates hot and be counter productive using the chiller?

Other methods?

 

[storytyme]

I'm finishing up upgrading my system which will include a plate chiller also. Obviously there's two schools of thought on this on this.
Here's some more info: https://homebrewacademy.com/plate-chiller-methods/

Great link. Thanks. I like the ice bath in the MASH TUN cooler and recirculate, but that means a second pump......uh oh maybe an upgrade is coming.

 

[storytyme]

I keep thinking of things. Can you put ice water into mash tun cooler and gravity feed it into the plate chiller while using the pump to control wort flow. Would the gravity feed not be enough? Just don't think buying a second pump is quite worth it at this point.

 

[passedpawn]

Yes.
No i found the hop character was ruined using a spider.

I freeball the hops into the boil kettle, but then I add the spider during the last 5 minutes of the boil. Use the pump to return the wort to the spider. This removes most of the debris. Kind of the best of both worlds I think.

 

[passedpawn]

So I splurged and went and got the Blichmann Therminator. I've used it for a few batches and I really like it, but I am thinking I can be more efficient with it. I run my hose throw a ice chest full of ice water then into the plate chiller. It still doesn't seem to get it as low as the water temp even when it is throttled way down. So I was thinking since I am recirculating the wort the last 15 min of the boil to sanitize the chiller why not continue that with the flame out and the hose turned on to create a whirlpool and then once the wort is at a low temp I can transfer to the carboy. Is this what everyone does? Should I not do this? Any other ideas from the plate chiller experts out there please chime in. Thanks in advance everyone.

That's what I do. I recirc for about 5 minutes full speed until the chiller output gets down to 120 or so, then I slow the flow (maybe down to 25%) and let it go into the fermentors. I don't use ice, so my chilling water never gets it below 80F in the summer. So I just put the fermentors into the chest freezer and it's down to temp by the evening, or maybe the next day. Then I pitch yeast. I don't like dealing with ice.

 

[storytyme]

That's what I do. I recirc for about 5 minutes full speed until the chiller output gets down to 120 or so, then I slow the flow (maybe down to 25%) and let it go into the fermentors. I don't use ice, so my chilling water never gets it below 80F in the summer. So I just put the fermentors into the chest freezer and it's down to temp by the evening, or maybe the next day. Then I pitch yeast. I don't like dealing with ice.

Sounds very similar. I just tried the ice thing a few batches ago and it is a bit of an extra step as it doesn't get to pitching temp even with ice which is why I started this thread so I do the same and pitch that night or in the morning.

What is the disadvantage or negative effect of letting wort hang in the chest freezer for a period of time before pitching?

 

[passedpawn]

Sounds very similar. I just tried the ice thing a few batches ago and it is a bit of an extra step as it doesn't get to pitching temp even with ice which is why I started this thread so I do the same and pitch that night or in the morning.

What is the disadvantage or negative effect of letting wort hang in the chest freezer for a period of time before pitching?

I guess just the risk of infection during that time. Once the alcohol production starts, that risk is minimized. So just make sure the fermentor and all cold side equipment that touches the wort are sanitized well and no worries. I've been doing this for a long time and haven't had any problems.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I freeball the hops into the boil kettle, but then I add the spider during the last 5 minutes of the boil. Use the pump to return the wort to the spider. This removes most of the debris. Kind of the best of both worlds I think.

Hmm that's a good idea.

 

[November]

@November how long does that single pass take (on average)?
how big is it? area and number of plates?

thanks for the data point.
I’m in the market for a chiller and trying to decide plate or counterflow.

About 10 minutes for a 10 gallon batch today, so yeah probably 15 mins for for a half barrel.

 

[November]

Great link. Thanks. I like the ice bath in the MASH TUN cooler and recirculate, but that means a second pump......uh oh maybe an upgrade is coming.

If all you are going to be doing is move ice water you could buy a cheap pond or immersion pump. Wouldn't need to be food grade or high temp.

Cheaper option.

 

[mongoose33]

@mongoose33 i can’t imagine that the chilling performance suffers much from returning the wort to the kettle.
Not speaking from experience here.
Seems like you have to get the heat out of the full volume no matter where it’s directed.

The only savings I can see in my mind’s eye is that if not returning the wort to the kettle, you won’t need to pull the heat out of the kettle itself.

Well, I certainly can always stand to learn more, but here's a funny thing about the way mine works: it draws the temp down fairly fast from boiling to about 160 degrees. Just a very few minutes--maybe 3 or so, I haven't timed it exactly. But the close the wort is to the final temp I want, the slower the pace at which that entire batch cools.

We know that the greater the difference in temps between the water and the wort, the more heat is pulled out into the water. And when a batch of wort--5.75 gallons for a batch, say--is down to 80 degrees, the difference is not that great between the wort and the water. So cooling slows.

But if I'm not mixing the cooled wort back into the kettle; the length of time should be limited to the flow of the wort.

**********

I'm hopefully going to get a chance to test this today. The fittings that allow me to monitor temp of the chilled wort as it comes out of the chiller will let me control what goes into the fermenter, and then we'll be able to see.

I'll report back either way with what I learn.

OK, I'm back. And disappointed. I could not dial in that CF chiller to where it would drop the temp down to something I could send directly into the fermenter. Back and forth with the pump valve, in the end, I was recirculating it for a long time. So much so that I don't think it took any less time than if I'd just recirculated from the get-go.

I don't know why it performed so poorly. It's a stainless counterflow chiller and that has something to do with it--copper is better at heat transfer, but I'm trying to do LODO techniques and copper is NG for that.

<sigh>

 

[Blazinlow86]

OK, I'm back. And disappointed. I could not dial in that CF chiller to where it would drop the temp down to something I could send directly into the fermenter. Back and forth with the pump valve, in the end, I was recirculating it for a long time. So much so that I don't think it took any less time than if I'd just recirculated from the get-go.

I don't know why it performed so poorly. It's a stainless counterflow chiller and that has something to do with it--copper is better at heat transfer, but I'm trying to do LODO techniques and copper is NG for that.

<sigh>

What temps are you trying to achieve. I whirlpool chill with my cfc and it takes about 3 mins to get 18 gallons down to 170f. I usually keep it whirlpooling for 15 mins and by the end its down to appx 110f. I let it stand for another 15mins then direct to the fermentor. I can generally only get down to 77f into the fermentator using my ground water which is usually appx 68f. Not sure if that helps. cheers

 

[storytyme]

Moving forward my plan is to sanitize by recirculating wort the last 10-15 min of the boil. I will then continue to recirculate with garden hose on to create a whirlpool for 15 minutes. I will then transfer to carboy and let it sit in chest freezer until ideal pitching temp. A little longer wait in the summer and a little quicker in the winter based on tap water temp. Not going to deal with the ice because it served no real purpose unless I recirculated that as well, but my money can be spent in better areas. Thanks everyone and good luck with your next brews.

 

[FunkedOut]

OK, I'm back. And disappointed. I could not dial in that CF chiller to where it would drop the temp down to something I could send directly into the fermenter. Back and forth with the pump valve, in the end, I was recirculating it for a long time. So much so that I don't think it took any less time than if I'd just recirculated from the get-go.

I don't know why it performed so poorly. It's a stainless counterflow chiller and that has something to do with it--copper is better at heat transfer, but I'm trying to do LODO techniques and copper is NG for that.

<sigh>

Again, not speaking from experience here, but I’ll share my thoughts anyway.

I think adjusting flow rates is a fine tune once you’re in the ballpark.
The coarse adjust knobs are water temp and chiller surface area.

@November chiller has about twice the surface area as yours. He’s reporting ~1 gallon of wort per minute, single pass.
That is excellent.
I’d be curious to know his water temp and flowrate.

I need about 5 minutes to chill my wort down to ~100*F with an immersion chiller with ~85*F water temp.
Then I switch to ice water with an $8 pump to get down to pitching temps.

 

[storytyme]

Again, not speaking from experience here, but I’ll share my thoughts anyway.

I think adjusting flow rates is a fine tune once you’re in the ballpark.
The coarse adjust knobs are water temp and chiller surface area.

@November chiller has about twice the surface area as yours. He’s reporting ~1 gallon of wort per minute, single pass.
That is excellent.
I’d be curious to know his water temp and flowrate.

I need about 5 minutes to chill my wort down to ~100*F with an immersion chiller with ~85*F water temp.
Then I switch to ice water with an $8 pump to get down to pitching temps.

@FunkedOut where did you get that pump? You have a picture of it? Thanks.

 

[FunkedOut]

@FunkedOut where did you get that pump? You have a picture of it? Thanks.

Looks like price went up $1.
I’ve had it since early 2017. Still good.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/272731565843

 

[storytyme]

Again, not speaking from experience here, but I’ll share my thoughts anyway.

I think adjusting flow rates is a fine tune once you’re in the ballpark.
The coarse adjust knobs are water temp and chiller surface area.

@November chiller has about twice the surface area as yours. He’s reporting ~1 gallon of wort per minute, single pass.
That is excellent.
I’d be curious to know his water temp and flowrate.

I need about 5 minutes to chill my wort down to ~100*F with an immersion chiller with ~85*F water temp.
Then I switch to ice water with an $8 pump to get down to pitching temps.

@FunkedOut can you explain a little more how you use this pump to recirculate the ice water. Hoses? I've never used one. Thanks.

 

[mongoose33]

I have to extend my comments on the CF chiller. I had a terrible brew day today using that chiller. My fault, of course. I figure every time I make a mistake I learn something. I also figure I must be getting pretty smart.

Anyway, today was my 4th brew day on the new equipment. I have a good target for strike temp, and I'm going to recirc until I get the temp to stabilize there. So it stabilizes at 162/3, which given the grain and cooler and temps and such should get me about 152 mash temp.

I get the water pumped into the mash tun, underletting, and it takes maybe 15 minutes. I climb up a stepstool to stir it and take an initial temp, and it's.....about 135 degrees! OMIGOD!

I figured that because I dialed down the pumping rate, AND apparently the water wasn't completely off in the CF chiller, i.e., coming through at a trickle, I was chilling what went into the mash tun.

I almost aborted the batch at that point, but thought I'd try to fix it. Poured in a gallon of boiling water, added another 2.25 pounds of crushed grain, stir, and let it sit for an hour after that. I lauter off and it's tasty and sweet. Preboil gravity is 1.048, which is where I'd expect. I decided to brew it, and I think it's turned out ok.

So lesson learned--I have that new setup so I can monitor the temp of the wort as it comes out of the chiller. Do you think I looked at that thermometer dial even one time while all this was going on? I did not.

Next time, I'm going to handle the water differently, and pay closer attention. I hope it doesn't take a lot longer to dial in this new system.

 

[FunkedOut]

@FunkedOut can you explain a little more how you use this pump to recirculate the ice water. Hoses? I've never used one. Thanks.

here's the pump attached to a garden hose:

i just submerge it in a cooler with ice water:

this is the garden hose from the hose bib, going to the chiller for the 1st 5 minutes or so, where i make 10 gallons of hot water to clean later:

then i disconnect the garden hose from the hose bib, and connect the garden hose from the small pump for the last leg. i'll make a 5 gallon bucket like this, then recirculate the ice water, like in this last pic:

 

[storytyme]

Awesome. Thank you for spending the time posting the photos. Much appreciated.

 

[linda1998]

I got it.

 

[augiedoggy]

What cloggs it? Hop material or break material?
Do you use a sock or spyder for your hops?
If yes, what size mesh?

Sorry for the mini-hijack, storytyme.
It’s still relevant.

Back to original topic...
@mongoose33 i can’t imagine that the chilling performance suffers much from returning the wort to the kettle.
Not speaking from experience here.
Seems like you have to get the heat out of the full volume no matter where it’s directed.

The only savings I can see in my mind’s eye is that if not returning the wort to the kettle, you won’t need to pull the heat out of the kettle itself.


With my immersion chiller, I have to make 15 gallons of hot water to get the wort to pitching temps.
The 1st 10 gallons start out at about 85*F.
The last 5 gallons start out at about 40*F.

With a plate chiller recirculating cold break back through the plate chiller is a very bad idea. Ideally it should be used in one pass or with some sort of effective prefiltering or like others have said its a clogginator.. especially the short chillers with more plates.. add on blichmans speacial twisted pathway design and it clogs more easily than any homebrewing chiller on the market.

 

[augiedoggy]

keep in mind with the small plastic pump your only pumping water through at like 2-3 gpm with is really slow coolant flow compared to a faucet directly. depending on your ground water temps this could do more harm than good. obviously its working good for Funkedout.

 

[Dland]

My current method is to whirlpool after boil is over, let the trub settle, then I wash out my mash tun and put post boil hops(usually loose leaf) into it, gravity feed hot wort into MT vessel, let hops steep 10 or 15 mins. Then I pump the wort, which is usually about 180F by that time, though plate cooler and down to fermentor in cellar. My well water is in high 50'sF and in summer I can usually get wort down to mid 70's or cooler in 10-15 minutes. I throttle back on valve on pump 1/2 to 2/3s to slow the wort though the cooler, or it would end up in cellar too hot. Things cool a little quicker and colder in cooler weather and I can get wort down to lager pitching temps then.

I recently had some batches go off, probably a lactic acid bacteria of some sort. The plate cooler and overall post boil sanitation became suspect. If the plate cooler is not clear of debris, pumping sanitizer will not necessarily kill all the bad critters in it. Hence the need to try to keep trub and hop debris down to a minimum.

One good thing about gravity feeding into post boil hop vessel is almost all BK trub is left behind. A pump tends to pull some though to plate cooler even with a screen. It is important to clean valves and sight glass on this kettle though, because it is no longer strictly "hot side".

 

[storytyme]

My current method is to whirlpool after boil is over, let the trub settle, then I wash out my mash tun and put post boil hops(usually loose leaf) into it, gravity feed hot wort into MT vessel, let hops steep 10 or 15 mins. Then I pump the wort, which is usually about 180F by that time, though plate cooler and down to fermentor in cellar. My well water is in high 50'sF and in summer I can usually get wort down to mid 70's or cooler in 10-15 minutes. I throttle back on valve on pump 1/2 to 2/3s to slow the wort though the cooler, or it would end up in cellar too hot. Things cool a little quicker and colder in cooler weather and I can get wort down to lager pitching temps then.

I recently had some batches go off, probably a lactic acid bacteria of some sort. The plate cooler and overall post boil sanitation became suspect. If the plate cooler is not clear of debris, pumping sanitizer will not necessarily kill all the bad critters in it. Hence the need to try to keep trub and hop debris down to a minimum.

One good thing about gravity feeding into post boil hop vessel is almost all BK trub is left behind. A pump tends to pull some though to plate cooler even with a screen. It is important to clean valves and sight glass on this kettle though, because it is no longer strictly "hot side".

Very interesting. So basically you are using a secondary vessel prior to fermentor. I assume your mash tun is not a cooler because I know in mine there are tons of scratches in it which is for sure a bacteria haven. I love the idea, but would have to get a different vessel to perform it.

 

[Dland]

Right, mash tun is stainless keg kettle, middle vessel in avatar pic. I guess it might technically be a hop back in that function.