How can I combat "flat" flavor issues?

[Jablestein]

Hey all,

I'm a pretty new brewer with two bottled batches under my belt (a kit Amber and kit IPA). I've been going with a single bucket fermentation for 3 weeks, followed by a bottling period of about 2 weeks. However, one thing I seem to notice with my first two beers is a seemingly flat taste. The flavor is definitely there and the beer has a really nice head, but It doesn't have that crisp bite like many of the other commercial brews that I drink. I'm just curious if you guys have experienced the same issue, if it even IS and issue, and if so, how you've fixed it.

Thanks in advance for any tips!

-Justin
aka Jablestein

 

[Grizzlybrew]

What CO2 level are you carbing to? I'm assuming with kit, it's probably appropriate, but may be lower than typical commercial levels. That "Crisp" bite you describe is often the formation of carbonic acid on your tongue. More CO2 in solution means more bite. Your pH level could also affect the beer's presentation. Both of the forementioned items should be addressed by the kit's creators.

Other than that, a hot fermentation always seems to muddle flavors by adding unwanted phenolics and esters. With new brewers (especially this time of year), hot fermentations seem to be almost inescapable.

Try fermenting at the optimal temperature and possibly over prime slightly - remember to be careful, you don't want bombs (think 10% increase). Also, remember that natural carbonation generally provides a different type of carbonation (more, smaller bubbles) whereas forced carbonation provides more bite from fewer, but larger bubbles.

Idk if any of that helps. Good luck!

 

[jonmohno]

What is your longest you decided this after bottle carbing? I find the taste profile changes alot within another month.

 

[Yooper]

There are a couple of things I can think of that may be causing this flavor issue.

One is simply that extract beers can taste like extract, so adding the bulk of the extract near the end of the boil can fix that. The second thing is having the beer ferment too warm, which may be a problem in the summer especially. If you can keep the beer in the mid 60's, that will make a big improvement. And the last thing is the yeast strain yeast. Yeast is a big part of the beer, and using a crappy yeast like Munton's or Cooper's can make a very "flat" tasting beer.

I'd suggest adding the majority of the extract near the end of the boil, keep the fermenting beer in the mid 60s (no higher!) and using a good quality ale yeast like S04, S05, or Nottingham. That should provide a much better, crisper flavor.

 

[jonmohno]

I hope the Coopers i used doesnt make my redrye ipa suck, I bought it thinking of the warmer temps it is known to be more forgiving.Plus i just wanted to try it, but it always sucks when i think i have a good recipe then take a gamble on something else like yeast.Knowing it has more esters doesnt bother me and fermenting at 68,probably wont do much. I used s-33 in a scottish 80 @68 deg, and am kind of disapointed in the lack of esters from the yeast but im only going on 1.5 wks bottle carbed so,Im not going to justify it completly as i had a good sized grain bill for it.

 

[Jablestein]

Wow guys! Thanks for all the awesome and quick responses. I apologize for not getting back sooner, I've been working some late nights recently. Let me address your questions:

@Grizzlybrew
To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure that the CO2 level is even covered in the kits I've been using. I'm doing a 5 gallon batch and I'm using the entire package of priming sugar that comes along with the kit. I'd have to look and see exactly how much priming sugar comes in the bag, but it's about the size of a small sandwich ziplock baggy (if that helps at all. I'll get some definite numbers once I get home).

I believe my fermentation temps are all pretty good. It sits in my basement and is easily under 70 degrees or so, but I'll make sure I keep an eye on this in the future.

I've given some thought to adding some additional priming sugar to the mix in hopes that maybe that cleans up the issue (assuming I'm not messing up somewhere else).

@jonmohno
I believe the initial instructions on the kit mentioned to wait 2 weeks after bottling. That's what I've been doing but it still seems to be somewhat of an issue. I did notice that the later bottles I had from my first batch seemed to get a little better and better though. However, there were also some duds in there which I can only attribute to my poor execution in distributing the priming sugar amongst the entire batch.

@Yooper
Thanks for the tip. Part of me did wonder if maybe it's just a situation where "this is just what home brew beer tastes like". I haven't gone to all grain yet. The first batch did incorporate a single stage of Liquid Malt Extract and my recent IPA had both a Dry (at the beginning) and Liquid (at the end) Malt Extract.

I guess I'll need to keep a much closer eye on the temp of the beer but I'm fairly certain it's always been mid-60's when sitting in my basement to ferment.

As far as the Yeast strains are concerned, I've been going with a White Labs Liquid Yeast strain (California Ale and currently about to use a Cal 5 Ale).

Again thank you all so much for all your responses and help. It looks like I've got a LOT to learn about some of the beer lingo still (esters, phenolics, etc!) I'm planning on doing a fruit addition to my next batch and I'm hoping that some of the natural sugars from the fruit might help me gain some additional carbonation.

 

[mrk305]

There are lots of online suppliers that put together better ingredient kits than what you typically buy in a box, also.

 

[unionrdr]

The fruit will get you more ABV,certainly.And more flavor. But I use the cooper's ale yeast all the time. I just either make small starters,or add 1-2 tsp of dextrose to the re-hydrating water. It def needs a blow off with those. But cooper's ale yeast is said to be best between 62-72F. According to Midwest's description. But I've seen that 67-68 is good with it. It's a very robust yeast that can give good flavors either way when good ferment temps are observed.

 

[beergolf]

My first brew was a kit and I tasted it at 2 weeks, and it tasted very thin. By 4 weeks the flavor improved a ton. Let it sit and then taste it again. You will notice a great improvement.

 

[Jablestein]

There are lots of online suppliers that put together better ingredient kits than what you typically buy in a box, also.

I really want to continue to support my local Home Brew store, but it might be worth while to try another kit online and see what happens. Do you have any suggestions on places that sell good kits?

My first brew was a kit and I tasted it at 2 weeks, and it tasted very thin. By 4 weeks the flavor improved a ton. Let it sit and then taste it again. You will notice a great improvement.

Ya, I'm thinking about letting it sit a bit longer. This weekend will be 3 weeks in the bottle.

 

[Jablestein]

Actually one other question I had is in regards to oxidation and how it affects the batch (particularly in regards to the flat flavor issue). I think I might have had issues with transferring into my bottling bucket (a bit too much splashing). One of the other suggestions I was given was to "shake" the bucket" to help get the yeast started. I was doing this every few days, but I'm not sure how much this might be positively or negatively affecting the batch.

 

[Jablestein]

So a quick update...

The previous batch I made was actually pretty good after I let it sit for an additional few weeks, but I definitely think there's room for improvement.

I tried to make a few improvements to the batch I bottled today. Made sure I tried to stir in the wort with the water addition before pitching the yeast. I also made sure to get a good mixture between the beer and the priming sugar when transferring between the carboy and the bottling bucket.

However, I did start to notice something when transferring between primary to secondary fermentation as well as secondary to the bottling bucket. I don't currently own an auto siphon, which means i'm forced to create my own siphon. I think this causes some issues by introducing oxidation during the process. When I transfer from primary to secondary, I have to feed the tubing into the carboy AFTER the siphon has started. this means that for a short period of time the beer is falling and splashing into the carboy. Also, I notice that there's a lot of air inside the tubing, right where the racking cane and tubing meet. It seems to get swirled up in this part of the tubing and I'm concerned it might be introducing some oxidation here as well (I see air bubbles coming up from the end of the tube in the bottling bucket). Not sure if these are normal occurrences or if there's something I need to change in my process.

 

[jonmohno]

A way to fix the air in the tubing is when it is going to play around with where the tubing and hose meet,kind of bend it and adjust it by pinching and that kind of thing,also make shure your hose is a tight fit if you have a size that fits on too easily its too big and get a smaller size hose that fits tight.
Also i wouldnt shake the bucket after you pitch your yeast every few days and it is in its beginning stage,its enough to shake it before you pitch it.
If you ever get yourself to get a auto shipon, they are great and inexpensive and worth the few more dollers compared to the racking cane manual siphoning.
Also are you curling the end of your racking tube along the edge of inside the bottleing bucket?,it give you the swirling flow of the wort so it doesnt splash around

 

[Jablestein]

I do generally wrap the hose at the bottom of the bucket/carboy but the problem with not having the auto siphon is that I have to create a siphon first and then fit in the tubing, so there is always some initial splashing. However, my lovely wife bought me an auto-siphon (and wort chiller!) for my birthday, so I'm hoping that when I transfer my newest amber batch into the carboy, it won't be that big of a deal.

 

[mrk305]

I really want to continue to support my local Home Brew store, but it might be worth while to try another kit online and see what happens. Do you have any suggestions on places that sell good kits?

I usually buy local also. My LHBS sells ingredients so you can make up your recipe on the spot. The few times I have odered ingredients online have been from Austin Home Brew Supply in Texas and Brewmasters Warehouse here in Georgia. Both of them are vendors on here and very active on this site.

From Austin Home Brew I ordered a couple of their all grain kits. The website lists all the ingredients so you know exactly what you are getting. You can order extract, partial mash or all grain, add stuff and change yeast, etc.

From Brewmasters I have only ordered using their online recipe builder to order all grain recipes that I made up. They have kits but I have never ordered one from them.

There are lots more, but those are the only two that I have used for ingredients.

 

[Jon112]

I am having the same problem as you, I just did a beer kit and the only thing I added was cascade hops for a 10 minute boil. I bottled it on the weekend, and the flavor was there, but it was a little weak and watered down. I am thinking I should have bought a bag of malt extract to add to the kit instead of the dextrose.

If your beer gets any better let me know. I think time should help, mine was in the secondary for about 3-4 weeks.

There are all grain kits you can buy, in Canada they are hard to find but I think I found a place that sells a few, so that is my next project.

Also an auto siphon is amazing, totally worth the 15 dollars.

 

[Jablestein]

I'll certainly keep you posted. I'm still getting the process down and after reading about how oxidation can be introduced and how it's a bad thing for your beer, it makes me wonder if that's really my problem. My last boil (an amber ale) is sitting in primary right now and I'm planning to transfer it to secondary soon. My wife bought me an auto-siphon so it should be a much better process and a lot less splashing/bubbling around like the past few i've done.

One other thing I did notice though, was how much more "crisp" one of my beers tasted when the bottle was only half full. It was the last bottle that I...well...bottled, and I ran out of beer so the bottle was only about half full. I thought I'd use it as a test beer to see if the batch was finished or not, and when I cracked it and poured it, it tasted great. Very crisp and flavorful. Is there something to the amount of empty space/air inside a bottle that affects its carbonation? I generally leave about 1-1 1/2 inches of space in the top of the bottle. Maybe this is my problem. I'm also considering adding another 10% of priming sugar to the batch before I bottle to see if that increases it.

 

[Jon112]

I am new to beer but have been doing cider for a bit, so im no expert. I do think that a little bit of splashing when racking to secondary or bottles is normal, and really no way to get around it. That being said, i know air is bad for an extended amount of time. For example, having too much air in the bottles or having the beer sit in the secondary with a lot of air in it.

I also think the beer wont carbonate properly if there is an air gap, I always fill it pretty much right to the top, just leave space in the neck of the bottle.

I think the main reason my beer, and yours (i think) is a little weak on taste is because its from a kit and it most likely needs more substance in it for the flavor.