how bad did i screw up?

[rudyr]

First time using all ro water and adding chemicals back.I just started the mash for a sessional ipa. I added 4 grams of calcium cloride rather than .4 grams per gal. I did the same thing for the .6 grams of gypsum. I did a baib with 8.5 gal. start water. 34 grams calcium and 51 grams gypsum. Is it worth brewing or should i start over.

 

[ajdelange]

I think I'd dump.

 

[cyanmonkey]

I'll bet you know Bru 'n Water pretty well now.

 

[McKnuckle]

That's an experiment at this point, but probably undrinkable.

 

[rudyr]

I dumped it. Ill rebrew friday. Only lost 10 # grain. What a bonehead. I thought it seemed like alot. While im here im wondering how bad my tap water is. This is what the water plant guy gave me over the phone.
calcium 145
magnesium38.2
hardness as caco3 346
sodium 24.6
cloride 22
sulfate 238
PH 7.8
Is RO water the way to go for me. Do 100% and add chemicals back. I dont have a PH meter and dont plan on getting one right away. Been brewing with tap water for 2 yrs. biab allgrain. Ive been pretty happy with my high gravity barleywines,porters and stouts. Less so with my pale ales and ipas. I think water is my next frontier to conquer. Not getting a good start. Anyway any information would be good. Thankyou

 

[ajdelange]

Add to what he told you that the alkalinity is almost 300 and it is pretty clear that this is essentially throw-away water so yes, 100% RO with mineral supplementation is the easiest way to go. Depending on requirements we could talk about high ratio dilution with supplementation and lime softening or a combination but clearly the simplest is to just start with that clean sheet of paper that RO provides.

 

[helibrewer]

First time using all ro water and adding chemicals back.I just started the mash for a sessional ipa. I added 4 grams of calcium cloride rather than .4 grams per gal. I did the same thing for the .6 grams of gypsum. I did a baib with 8.5 gal. start water. 34 grams calcium and 51 grams gypsum. Is it worth brewing or should i start over.

Now THAT is some Burtonized water! Sorry for your loss but I think you did the right thing.

 

[kpr121]

How much do you trust the water company guy? Might be worth a sample sent out to ward labs just in case.

How's your tap water taste by itself?

Sorry for your loss, but I would have probably fermented the beer out just to test it. If anything you would absolutely know what too much salts taste like.

 

[dragonfire540]

I wouldn't do all RO. I would dilute with distilled water to bring down your alkalinity. You have good calcium so you have room there. Where the Water is at now can brew a decent stout or other dark styles between 35 and 30 SRM

 

[dragonfire540]

I dumped it. Ill rebrew friday. Only lost 10 # grain. What a bonehead. I thought it seemed like alot. While im here im wondering how bad my tap water is. This is what the water plant guy gave me over the phone.
calcium 145
magnesium38.2
hardness as caco3 346
sodium 24.6
cloride 22
sulfate 238
PH 7.8
Is RO water the way to go for me. Do 100% and add chemicals back. I dont have a PH meter and dont plan on getting one right away. Been brewing with tap water for 2 yrs. biab allgrain. Ive been pretty happy with my high gravity barleywines,porters and stouts. Less so with my pale ales and ipas. I think water is my next frontier to conquer. Not getting a good start. Anyway any information would be good. Thankyou

Are you sure that sulfate is 238? That is really high chloride at 22 ... that is a crazy balance. that puts you at somewhere around 10 for sulfate to chloride ratio.

you could dilute 50 percent distilled water and use .20Gram per gallon calcium chloride to put the ratio back in balance for a bitter pale ale. given that you really do have 238 sulfate. you may also need to acidify the mash with acid to get the mash pH down with a lighter color beer where you won't have much in the way of darker malts to acidify the mash.

 

[rudyr]

Im calling the water department back tomorrow and verify those numbers. Any other questions I should ask him? Not bragging but at my brew club they cant believe how good my beers are. They are in another water department but alot use ro water. My tap tastes fine to drink and make dark and high gravity beer.

 

[ajdelange]

Are you sure that sulfate is 238? That is really high chloride at 22 ... that is a crazy balance. that puts you at somewhere around 10 for sulfate to chloride ratio.

Twenty two is hardly high chloride and nature doesn't much care about chloride to sulfate ratios. Live in a high salt region and the chloride will be high, in a gypseous rock region and the sulfate will be high. Brewers would be better off ignoring chloride to sulfate ratios too!

 

[ajdelange]

Im calling the water department back tomorrow and verify those numbers. Any other questions I should ask him?

It's pretty clear that the alkalinity is around 300 but you should ask him to confirm that.

Not bragging but at my brew club they cant believe how good my beers are. They are in another water department but alot use ro water. My tap tastes fine to drink and make dark and high gravity beer.

De gustibus non est disputandem but I wouldn't be able to drink either your water or, most probably, beers made from it but then you never know until you actually taste.

 

[McKnuckle]

Twenty two is hardly high chloride

That's not what he meant. Here's the statement with better punctuation:

"Are you sure that sulfate is 238? That is really high... and chloride at 22 ... that is a crazy balance."

 

[dragonfire540]

I was refering to the sulfate not the cloride being high. .. sulfate to cloride ratio should only be paid attention to after all else is tuned and only if you need to. It does make a difference in my beers but just weather it tastes more malty or bitter. So nessesary no.. but helpfull... yes

 

[dragonfire540]

Thanks McKnuckle. I should read what I write better. Using Mobile device doesn't give me the best type.

 

[rudyr]

Those numbers for my water are correct. I think i'll use all ro water for now. Need to play around with those water calculators now for my next beer.

 

[ajdelange]

I was refering to the sulfate not the cloride being high. .. sulfate to cloride ratio should only be paid attention to after all else is tuned and only if you need to. It does make a difference in my beers but just weather it tastes more malty or bitter. So nessesary no.. but helpfull... yes

What matters is the absolute amounts of the salts. The ratio has little to do with it. Now one concentration and the ratio represents two degrees of freedom as surely as two concentrations do but it is a two degree of freedom problem. The ratio alone is not sufficient. A beer with 100 mg/L sulfate and 100 mg/L chloride is not going to be the same as one with 200 of each.

 

[dragonfire540]

What matters is the absolute amounts of the salts. The ratio has little to do with it. Now one concentration and the ratio represents two degrees of freedom as surely as two concentrations do but it is a two degree of freedom problem. The ratio alone is not sufficient. A beer with 100 mg/L sulfate and 100 mg/L chloride is not going to be the same as one with 200 of each.

According to Palmer an Collin it is, and my brews seem to agree with it.
The sulfate to chloride ratio effects the perception on malts or bitterness and the amounts don't seam to matter as much as the ratio itself.
The perception of that balance will be the same with 100mg of each as it would with 200mg of each. You might get other tastes with higher amounts .. salty or sulfery... but all else the same, the perception of melt or bitterness will be the same.
That was my point.

 

[dragonfire540]

Those numbers for my water are correct. I think i'll use all ro water for now. Need to play around with those water calculators now for my next beer.

Heck bottle that water up and send to me ill brew with it. Cut it 50% with distilled water and add calcium chloride to balance. Your water has much more calcium then mine

 

[ajdelange]

According to Palmer an Collin it is, and my brews seem to agree with it.

I've discussed this with John and Colin as part of my duties as tech editor of the book. I've explained to them what the source of this misconception is and while they have some theories about it applying over limited ranges of of ratio I think you'd find that they would agree with what I have said.

The sulfate to chloride ratio effects the perception on malts or bitterness and the amounts don't seam to matter as much as the ratio itself.

This would suggest that the two have log antipodal effect. They would, therefore, be highly correlated. Lewis, for example, in his stout monograph, found a correlation of about 0.-0.61. That's not independent but it's certainly not antipodal.

The perception of that balance will be the same with 100mg of each as it would with 200mg of each. You might get other tastes with higher amounts .. salty or sulfery... but all else the same, the perception of melt or bitterness will be the same.

As melt depends on primarily on the amounts types and management of the melts and bitterness depends primarily on the hops, not the minerals, there is some truth in that. Augmenting chloride causes the beer to taste fuller, sweeter, rounder and have more mouthfeel. Sulfate tends to cause hops bitterness to be perceived as coarser, sharper and harsher. If your hopping is too aggressive you can't fix it by adding more chloride. If your beer is too sweet and has too much body you can't fix it by adding more chloride. Each has it's independent effect. I brew beers with 0 sulfate (I invested time and $ on RO primarily to get rid of the low level sulfate in my water). My maltiness/hoppiness ratio can be wherever I want it to be depending on my malt, hop and program choices.

That was my point.

Suggest you try an experiment in which you brew a beer with equal amounts of Cl- and SO4-- and then add a substantial, but equal amount of each to the glass.

 

[mabrungard]

AJ, I could have sworn that we managed to include a qualifier regarding the sulfate/chloride ratio in the water book? I had hypothesized during our association with the book, that by just assuring that the chloride content was between 25 and 100 ppm, then the resulting ratio and sulfate content was also OK and applicable.

I do find that the ratio does have an effect on beer flavor and perception when that chloride limitation is applied. Another point that I want more users to recognize is that the common terms for its use: malty and bitter, are not the best way to think about the effect. I prefer to use the terms: fullness and dryness. There is some correlation between the two sets of terms. However, there is no amount of chloride or sulfate that can make a beer malty or bitter. Only the malt bill and hop bill can do that. But chloride and sulfate will affect fullness and dryness (respectively). Let's get this perception into our lexicon.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, I think that's right. You all agreed that over a narrow range the ratio alone was sufficient and that is consistent with the notion of more than one degree of freedom. The range of applicability represents the other. Short of extensive experiments and taste tests, which weren't a possibility, I was mollified.

And yes, it is important to recognize that this is when the malt and hops bills are fixed, i.e. that it is those that mainly determine the malitiness/hoppiness - not the water.

 

[dragonfire540]

Ok let me clarify further that I did not mean that you could fix the beer.. the choride and sulfate does not make it bitter or malty but that it only the perception of it... it is from what I understood from the book and from Brew strong and other sources the last thing you should worry about if at all. Just another

 

[dragonfire540]

Ok let me clarify by saying that I did not mean in any way that it will make it more malty or bitter or fix a beer that does not have it just that it is a tool that can be used to alter the perception of such and that it can be used to help fine tune the end result of the beer at least this is what I understood from the book and from the brew strong as well as other sources

 

[dragonfire540]

But if you were a technical editor on that book then I'll shut up now

 

[dragonfire540]

Ok well not shut up yet... I feel a bit like a dumba$$ ... See I am new in these here parts and did not realize that who I was arguing this point with is two of the very sources that whom much of my understanding of water chemistry was derived from, and the creator of the spreadsheet that I use with nearly ever recipe I build.
My apologies.
I have spent only a couple years trying to absorb everything I can about water chemistry, not just for my beer but an interest I have due to the company I work for, whose product is derived from 100% water and energy!

 

[ajdelange]

Ok well not shut up yet... I feel a bit like a dumba$$ ...

Well you shouldn't. There are lots and lots of questionable assumptions out there concerning brewing and if they don't get brought up they don't get discussed and the various viewpoints aired. Science is not done by consensus but by experiment and observation. The results of the experiments and observations can be interpreted in various ways....

 

[mabrungard]

Ok well not shut up yet... I feel a bit like a dumba$$ ...

Agreed, you have nothing to apologize for. Questions and questioning don't mean you are dumb or obstinate. I've found that questioning the status quo is the first step in expanding knowledge.

 

[dragonfire540]

Well perhaps you might be able to answer a burning question then that has been bugging me.
My water is sourced from the Great Miami Aquifer, processed by the City of Hamilton water works in southwest Ohio. It is supposedly really good water as far as tap water is concerned. I use a whole house carbon filter as the water enters the house, then I have another sediment filter build into the feed water lines in my brew rig. Question is this, how does those filters effect the water content as delivered from the water works as far as mineral content is concerned?