How accurate are mash water calculators??

[BaylessBrewer]

Are the calculators like the one on BrewersFriend accurate as far as ph and ion levels go when full volume mashing? I don't have a ph meter but I use the advanced water calculator on Brewers friend along with my water report to figure out what if any adjustments are needed to get to desired mash ph and water profile. Then add what the calculator says to add.
No problems with quality or off flavors yet. Just wondering if anyone has checked?

 

[Braufessor]

Can't speak for all of them, but B'run water always gets me very close to projected pH. I have a good pH meter that I calibrate very regularly and I am always within 3-5 100th's or less of what was projected.

 

[wardens355]

Never actually checked ion concentrations, but Bru'n Water usually gets my pH within +/- 0.05 or so (I checked frequently at first, now only sporadically to spot check). Will probably depend on a few factors/variables: (1) how accurate your base water input is, (2) how variable your water source is, (3) what maltster you are using/properties of the grain, (4) if your minerals have taken on any moisture.

 

[firerat]

Another vouch for Bru'n.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I cannot comment on them being "scientifically" or "measurably" accurate. I don't have the schooling to know for sure if they're correct.

I can comment on using brewer's friend for water chemistry additions on an annecdotal level. I've used it to adjust my city's high pH water and low chloride/sulfate levels. My adjustments seem to change the outcome of the beer the way I expect it to, my perception of the changes matches what my additions should be doing. (yes, this could be my expectation coloring my perceptions)

I only do small additons to adjust my chloride/sulfate level depending on if I am doing an IPA or other non-IPAs. I seem to be getting much better efficiencies by adjusting my mash pH on my pale-r style beers (using Brewer's Friend). Though color this with, I use it to only make relatively small changes, city water is 19 chloride and 8.5 sulfate and I only bring my chloride up to around 40-50 for malty beers and my sulfate to around 60-70. (I also don't have a pH meter but my efficiencies jumped when I started using brewer's friend to adjust mash pH)

 

[MagicMatt]

Just a word of warning when it comes to Bru'n, I've found (and have been reafffirmed by AJ deLange) that it tends to suggest a lower pH than the other models, which by my experience often does undershoot the desired pH.

Personally I prefer Brewer's Friend, and as long as I take care when entering the details of my starting water, salt additions, and grist info, the resulting pH is usually spot on.

Here's a quote from AJ regarding the differences expected:

First, the reason for the differences which it is important to understand. Caculation of mash pH is quite simple if you use the proper algorithm which none of these calculators do and one of the reasons for that is that they don't have the required information about the malts that they need. Of them, Brewer's friend comes closest to doing it right because he has gathered actual data on a rather large set of malts. Were he to refine (and repeat) all those measurements he'd be using the proper algorithm for the malts he measured. So lets say he did that. These would not be the malts you would be using because you'd buy your malts from a different maltster or even if from the same maltster from a different batch etc. So when it comes time for you to put your numbers in a spreadhsheet it has to WAG malt parameters from a list of types perhaps refined by color. It doesn't matter if the algorithm is perfect: GIGO. So all the spreadsheets are going to be wrong and, of course, you would like to know which is least wrong. That is an impossible question to answer as to do so would involve extensive experiments with thousands of brews.

Yes, there is some discrepancy as each of the programs uses a different model for the malt's acidity/alkalinity. The AJ model is robust but the answers are not necessarily better than the other estimators as I too have to guess at what the malts you are using actually are like and do the calculations based on malts that I or Kai have measured which I am guessing are closest to the ones you are acutally using.

BruN seems to lower the pH more than the others on all steps - grain, minerals, acid.

That is an observation I have seen repeated here several times.

The best thing to do is to make a test mash and measure its pH with a reliable pH meter.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Well, when a known amount of a given salt is added to a known amount of water with a known base concentration, you should be able to calculate very accurately the new concentration. Now, things like calcium chloride salts absorbing water and changing the weight slightly would have an impact, although small. And measurement errors, and inaccuracy in the reporting of the base water concentration would have much greater impact. Unless you're accurately measuring your tap water chemistry every time, or starting with a consistent (or nearly consistent) source like RO water, then I wouldn't worry about more than "close enough" because the source water will vary anyway.

As far as predicting mash pH, that then relies on both accurate water composition (see above), but also on the acidity produced by the malt, and that's a very complicated situation that (as far as I'm aware) cannot be solved without literally measuring the acidity of each malt you use individually. As far I know, A.J. deLange has measured some malts, but I know of no one who's measured enough to make a calculator out of it (maybe someone has and I'm wrong). So they're all approximations.

I measure my mash religiously with a pH meter, and I've always found Bru'N water to get me at least within 0.1, and usually (almost always) within 0.05 of my actual measured pH. That said, when it's off, it usually predicts lower than what I actually measure, so what these other folks are saying may be accurate. It's also possible that because for water figures I use average monthly figures and not real time measured composition, my average is off and thus the mash chemistry is off (see above again). I haven't used Brewer's Friend to predict pH personally, but I've heard good things about it.

So to answer your question, yes the calculators can be very accurate regarding ion concentrations IF you provide good data. As far as mash pH, it's like hop formulas. It'll get you close, but it's still an estimate.

 

[BaylessBrewer]

This is all good information. I don't need it down to .05 on my ph to be good enough for me. I just wanted to know if I was close to the 5.4 ph I seek.
I use the ion concentrates I get from water supply company so hopefully that's close too.
Maybe I'll bring home a ph meter from work and measure my next mash

 

[jahdub]

I remember reading about someone in the brewing science subforum buying a pH meter, only to realize his estimated pH from bru-n-water was close enough to his actual pH to not have to use the meter on a regular basis.

 

[MerlinWerks]

FWIW, I always check my pH with freshly calibrated Omega pH meter and for the vast majority of my beers Brun' Water predicts .1 lower than what I measure almost every time...

 

[enkamania]

I found Bru'n water is the most accurate.

 

[Braufessor]

I am the opposite of what many of you are observing with B'run water. My measured pH is always a bit lower than the projected pH.

If I am making an IPA/Pale Ale and I get a projected pH of 5.42 for instance, I will get a measured pH of 5.38 or 5.40 for instance.

I find that the projections are least accurate (for me and my water) when I am doing something like a porter and am shooting for a higher projected pH. My measured pH will tend to undershoot the projection by more.

I have high bicarbonate water (270ish) and blend it with RO.

 

[Homercidal]

I think the simple fact is that IF you use a calculator correctly AND you perform the measuring of water and salts properly, any calculator will help bring you into an acceptable pH.

Nailing the pH to a high precision is impossible in the homebrewer environment. Getting close is good enough when you aren't likely to get very close without calculating.

I have found Bru'nwater to be useful and I enjoy the process of building a water profile myself. But I've made mistakes and it took a few tries to fully understand what I really should be doing.

One mistake I've made more than once is to calculate a dilution ratio of tap water to RO and then forget and use all RO water when brewing. Or figure up the water and then on brewday get busy and think, "Oh well, I'll have make it simple and use HALF the water for mash and HALF the water for sparge, and that, of course, throws the whole thing off.

Other than those times I've discovered I did something wrong, the calculator has been pretty close.

 

[MerlinWerks]

I am the opposite of what many of you are observing with B'run water. My measured pH is always a bit lower than the projected pH.

If I am making an IPA/Pale Ale and I get a projected pH of 5.42 for instance, I will get a measured pH of 5.38 or 5.40 for instance.

I find that the projections are least accurate (for me and my water) when I am doing something like a porter and am shooting for a higher projected pH. My measured pH will tend to undershoot the projection by more.

I have high bicarbonate water (270ish) and blend it with RO.

Yep, it's the dark beers where Brun' falls a little short for me. Generally I measure lower than the prediction.

I may try the late mash addition of dark/roasted grains once I get a little better understanding of what that might do to kettle pH. But I think the best way to find that out is going be try it and measure, no surprise there

 

[Qhrumphf]

What I've started doing is adding salts to hit sulfate and chloride where i want. I get an estimate for this pH. Then I also get one for the approximate acid (or alkalinity) i need to add to hit my target. On brew day i measure pH, and if it differs from the unadjusted estimate i then adjust the acid or alkalinity accordingly. Hit my target every time.

 

[Braufessor]

Yep, it's the dark beers where Brun' falls a little short for me. Generally I measure lower than the prediction.

I may try the late mash addition of dark/roasted grains once I get a little better understanding of what that might do to kettle pH. But I think the best way to find that out is going be try it and measure, no surprise there

Yeah - to me it is no real big deal..... the key is it is consistent (which it is). I keep good notes and just adjust accordingly in future brews when I brew something dark. A little fine tuning and I can nail whatever pH I want within 2-3 brews.