How about a CO2 Capture system?

[WortMonger]

Thanks for the link.

 

[olllllo]

Thanks for the link.

I know that you'll go to town on it.

 

[WortMonger]

Reading it now , it is just starting to get interesting. I can't believe I didn't find this when searching. I am researching so many things right now though, but I am going to read the entire thread. Thanks again.

 

[macs]

How about feeding the CO2 to your Hop vines in a green house? They will flourish and provide you with more Hops for your brewsky.

 

[Poindexter]

One use for CO2 coming out of the fermenters would be into the corn patch, at least in summer time.

I forget what i was reading up on at the time, but I read somewhere that during daylight hours in "the corn belt" the rate limiting step for corn growth is that there is no detectable CO2 in the air among the corn plants. As soon as a carbon molecule becomes available, one or another of the corn plants snatches it up.

So you could maybe just run a 2" diameter line from the airlock on the fermenter out to the garden...

EDIT: Not that you would brew wth the corn, I was just thinking of a cheap way to get high utilization out of the by-product.

 

[Chriso]

No one seemed to even look for it.

I have been trying to find this alleged "Green Board" for weeks, I've googled and searched HBT and such.... Nobody ever bothered to mention that it wasn't CALLED "the Green Board". It's just the colour green. ... EACs, roast me now.

 

[WortMonger]

Wow, I took my time but 5 1/2 hours later I read the damn thing. This is exactly what I had in mind except that I would try to compress the gas into a CO2 bottle of just the right size to serve a 15.5 Sanke. Thanks again ollllo, great read. I have to say though that The first 100 pages of that read was like poor OldFart was trying to walk through thick mud. All the naysayers should have just budded out. That happens here to, but not as much and I really like that. People that don't want to hear about what is said in a thread should, well....... not read the thread. Everyone has the need to say something negative without scientific or mathematical proof. I really hate that and it made for a much longer thread to read than should have been. Without all the negative unfounded responses and off topic things that were said, 40 pages would have been 10.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Wow, I took my time but 5 1/2 hours later I read the damn thing. This is exactly what I had in mind except that I would try to compress the gas into a CO2 bottle of just the right size to serve a 15.5 Sanke. Thanks again ollllo, great read. I have to say though that The first 100 pages of that read was like poor OldFart was trying to walk through thick mud. All the naysayers should have just budded out. That happens here to, but not as much and I really like that. People that don't want to hear about what is said in a thread should, well....... not read the thread. Everyone has the need to say something negative without scientific or mathematical proof. I really hate that and it made for a much longer thread to read than should have been. Without all the negative unfounded responses and off topic things that were said, 40 pages would have been 10.

+1

But I'm only on page 24 of the thread. I'm a slow reader.

Good read though, for sure. And I don't like the water heater idea. I think some plastic carboys would be more functional. But the guy did it. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[BierMuncher]

...I took my time but 5 1/2 hours later I read the damn thing...

I took my time and 5 1/2 hours later I had ten gallons of Ordinary Bitters brewed.

Gots ta prioritize my brothaaa....

 

[Bobby_M]

I rather like playing devil's advocate when people come in advertising their great new ideas. If everyone does nothing but a bunch of back patting, there's no validation or interogation of the theory. Quite frankly, if someone wants to be an innovator, they have to be able to defend their ideas anyway.

I think the biggest issue with CO2 collection and reuse is the lack of economy of scale. We're not producing enough to justify the cost of the compressor required to bottle it in traditional high pressure tanks.

I've thought about using a diaphram tank like the ones used in hot water heating systems. If you use a pressurized fermenter like a sanke and compress the CO2 into the expansion tank, you can then close off the valve and move the tank to some other use. You can then use an air compressor on the other side of the diaphram to fully evacuate the CO2 or boost the pressure a bit.

It's a money losing proposition though when you can get your 20lb tanks filled for $20.

 

[IowaStateFan]

I rather like playing devil's advocate when people come in advertising their great new ideas. If everyone does nothing but a bunch of back patting, there's no validation or interogation of the theory. Quite frankly, if someone wants to be an innovator, they have to be able to defend their ideas anyway.

Good points, and playing devil's advocate is okay. The problem is when people are just negative, rude, or just trying to be funny without offering constructive criticism. Thankfully, we don't have a lot of that here and when someone does start to get out of hand they get put in their place pretty quickly. I tried to read the linked thread and it was difficult to get thru because of the negative, "can't be done" posts.

 

[WortMonger]

I completely agree with having to defend your idea. I do hate it when people don't ask anything and just say it won't work because. Because is not an answer. Because and information proving because, is! I get more information from an intelligent person quizzing me on how and why than I ever would would some completely uninterested a$$hole continually asking why anyone would want to do something. Sometimes a brain needs a challenge, and doing things another way is a way to vent some built up intellect. I think of it as it taking 3,000,000,000,000+ workable but not economical ideas that give birth to the 1 world changing event of our existance.

I was wondering though, if one collected CO2, what would be powerful enough to compress a usable amount into a normal CO2 bottle. I don't think I would like any system that didn't take me to an easily portable supply. I guess I am wondering if I could fill my new aluminum 5# bottle with 2.5# reclaimed CO2 using a safe vacuum pump (one end attached to the collection device and the other to the bottle on a scale to weight the input CO2)? I have no idea if something like the ####pump they talked about would provide that much compression to a bottle of CO2 you were filling.

 

[WortMonger]

Good points, and playing devil's advocate is okay. The problem is when people are just negative, rude, or just trying to be funny without offering constructive criticism. Thankfully, we don't have a lot of that here and when someone does start to get out of hand they get put in their place pretty quickly. I tried to read the linked thread and it was difficult to get thru because of the negative, "can't be done" posts.

Exactly, I don't understand why the mods didn't just erase non-relevant clutter from that thread. If your gonna be an a$$, at least offer something besides your witty sarcasm. I love witty sarcasm, followed by a practical or at least remotely intelligent response to the question at hand. People feel the need to say something, when all they had to do was think it was stupid and click the back button on the browser. I am glad it doesn't get like that here. This is a community of respect and everyone should pounce on a naysayer that can't back up their naysaying with science or experience. BierMuncher is great in the way he does it, prime example of respect but complete honesty about the product. Trying to sell something and trying to come up with something are a little different, but when a person ask for specific information about a broad idea and you have the info but don't like the whole idea.... just tell them the part they are asking and quietly keep some opinions to yourself (not BeirMuncher yourself as a universal ).

 

[olllllo]

"Can't be done," is used quite lazily here as short-hand for:
Can't be done - economically.
Can't be done - by the average homebrewer with commonly available resources.
Can't be done - in a time effecive manner.

Even when these are explicitly stated, on the flip side, people sometimes only read the, "can't be done," part.

We should all be more clear.

 

[macs]

I guess I am wondering if I could fill my new aluminum 5# bottle with 2.5# reclaimed CO2 using a safe vacuum pump (one end attached to the collection device and the other to the bottle on a scale to weight the input CO2)? I have no idea if something like the ####pump they talked about would provide that much compression to a bottle of CO2 you were filling.

I don't think an average vacuum pump would be able to compress the CO2 to the levels required since it is designed to evacuate rather than pressurize. I have an old "Slurpie" machine compressor that I salvaged from a creek after a major flood years ago that will easily hit 300psi, but 800-900 psi or more would be a real challenge. Hmmm...what if you had a way to super-cool the CO2 and the tank prior to filling? That should reduce the pressure required to liquify the CO2. There used to be a book available on the techniques used for the liquification of gases sold by Lindsay Publishing years ago. Not sure if it's still available or not.

 

[shafferpilot]

I've been thinking about compressing the gas and the best i have come up with is a Briggs and Stratton motor, or something similar. There are certainly problems with that like: oil vapors making their way into the bottle, small motors don't seal perfectly so it has to be turning at operating speed to build the kind of pressure we're talking about. Plus it would take a pretty stout electric or gas motor to turn the briggs.

I was thinking that the exhaust valve stem could be cut off and the valve head welded into the block to cover the exhaust opening. Then piping is plumbed to the spark plug hole, run through somekind of checkvalve and a filtering setup; then to the bottle.

I knew a guy who made an air compressor that way, but the motor he used was REALLY old and was barely able to make 250psi. But it worked.

 

[WortMonger]

LOL, I just registered and gave OldFart props for sticking to his fight. I see Hump went there too, lol. I was thinking of a compressor too, but the ones for fridges might put unwanted stuff in the gas. Why does the gas need to be at 800-900 psi? I am wondering if a required volume of CO2, that is however much is needed, could fit in a 5# CO2 tank at a lower pressure that can be obtained by a compressor like you mentioned?

I am asking, lol, why blow up a whole balloon with numerous chestfuls of breath, when you can simply put one breath in the balloon to blow out candles on a cake? <-----The Reinheitsgebot way of getting your birthday wish to come true. If it was possible with a cheap compressor and "enough???" could be fitted into a 5# tank, then who cares if my tank only has 1-2-3#'s of CO2 in it. Crap, what if .25# is all that is needed. It is these numbers that I need to find out.

 

[WortMonger]

I like the cold idea too, all my CO2 produced would be at least 65*F from the start. After I crash cool my beer and relieve any excess carbonation pressure, I would have 35*F CO2. From experience, I go from ~31 psi at 65*F to ~12.7 psi @35*F. I wonder how this would provide for more possibilities in what I am wanting to do, and by wonder I mean you brainiacs that have the numbers better give them up, lol.

Here we go, a specific questions for a brain:
1). How much CO2 is needed to serve a full 15.5 gallon keg, at "lets say" 10 psi with the CO2 being at room temperature of 68*F and the beer keg being at 40*F?
2). How much compression pressure is required from a pump to fill a CO2 tank to said pressure/volume needed in question 1?

 

[shafferpilot]

The problem is that if you don't compress it enough to turn to a liquid there isn't enough to do anything. Open the valve and it will go pfft. and be "empty". CO2 condenses at something like 635psi. If you have the pressure to get 1 lb of CO2 into a bottle, then you have the pressure to get 5 pounds in there too. That's why the high pressure gauge on a CO2 bottle is basically useless. The bottle stays at 600-800 psi for months and when it starts to drop, you have a pint or three to go before it's completely empty.

 

[WortMonger]

Ahhh, I see. That makes sense, but I did read that a 5 gallon corny at 30 psi full of CO2 has enough to serve a 5 gallon keg and leave you with about 6-9 psi remaining in the CO2 keg. So, that being read, could I get say (3) 5-gallon kegs worth of CO2 compressed into a bottle? I am planning a 15.5 Sanke for my collection vessel at 15-30 psi depending on temperature, but more likely 15 psi at 65*F. According to what I read, this should be sufficient to serve a 15.5 gallon Sanke. I wish to put all the CO2 from the Sanke into the 5# bottle. Can I do this, and how much pressure would it take?

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

My SWMBO is more of the science nerd. Sadly, she's more bio than physics, otherwise she'd be on it. Me, I'm more physics... but I really didn't pay all that much attention in class.

I could probably figure it out in a rudimentary way if nobody else has the info more at their fingertips.

And yeah, I'm thinking that 100 psi in a 10 pounder ought to be plenty for a couple cornies. Remember, if you just have 2 kegs, then having enough CO2 for maybe 3 or 4 batches is all we really need for the ideal set up. Afterall, unlike the people who need to make a special trip to go to the gas supply place, we'll be making our CO2 with every batch... so we don't need to "stock up".

It's sort of like the convenience of a quick-e-mart versus buying in bulk at Sam's Club. Except, in this case, the quick-e-mart is free and Sam's Club charges money. :fro:

 

[Bobby_M]

It's all good fun to think about this stuff. Let's look at it this way; atmosphere at sea level is about 15psi give or take so if you open a corny lid, let it equilize to the air and seal it back up, you have 5 gallons (.67 cubic feet) of air at 15psi (1 ATM). Of course, when we think of a tank having a certain PSI, we really mean 1ATM + that pressure because it's always about the differential pressure, not absolute.

Boyle's law basics; Volume of a gas is inversely proportional to its pressure.
Ok, so what if you have a way to turn the volume of the 5 gallon corny into half the space of 2.5 gallons? The pressure will double to 30psi or 2ATM. Do it again, 1.25gallons = 60PSI or 4ATM. That's probably about the same volume as a 5lb CO2 tank now. So, having a 1.25 gallon tank of C02 at 60psi is just about enough to push 5 gallons of beer out of a corny. Maybe not enough though because of pressure needed to maintain your desired carbonation level (probably 12 PSI). By the time 1/2 of the beer is pushed out, you'll be left with about 30psi (+15 absolute) which means beer is about to stop flowing and start going flat. Imagine when all the liquid CO2 has vaporized in a 5lb bottle. You now have about 1 gallon of gas at 600psi. You can imagine why that tank empties so quickly now. The pressure is no longer being replenished.

Even in that simple example, it's going to be difficult to compress to 60psi in a sanitary manner. My idea of using a bladdered expansion tank would work to a degree, but I don't know what the max pressure is. If you fill that sucker to 12psi with the back bladder "open". Close the co2 side, attach 12psi of compressed air on the bladder and you now have that tank size of 12psi but it will stay at that same pressure until the last cubic inch of CO2 is pushed out. We get into false economy debates again here though because what does it cost to run the old air compressor whenever you need to to maintain that 12psi?

 

[macs]

Here we go, a specific questions for a brain:
1). How much CO2 is needed to serve a full 15.5 gallon keg, at "lets say" 10 psi with the CO2 being at room temperature of 68*F and the beer keg being at 40*F?
2). How much compression pressure is required from a pump to fill a CO2 tank to said pressure/volume needed in question 1?

1) Answer: If my calcs are correct, at 10psi and 40*F you would need a total of 4.76 ozs of dissolved CO2 to maintain the carbonation level of 2.3 for 15.5 gallons of beer. Not sure what the volume would be for that much CO2. I'm sure there is a chart or formula for that.
2) Answer: Still working on it.....

 

[WortMonger]

Humm, so it is possible to scale to what I am already using, and will be using to collect the CO2. The only problem seems to be the sanitary compression of CO2 to higher than 60 psi so I can use a smaller CO2 tank.

 

[WortMonger]

1) Answer: If my calcs are correct, at 10psi and 40*F you would need a total of 4.76 ozs of dissolved CO2 to maintain the carbonation level of 2.3 for 15.5 gallons of beer. Not sure what the volume would be for that much CO2. I'm sure there is a chart or formula for that.
2) Answer: Still working on it.....

I was meaning serving already carbonated beer at 10 psi @ 40*F. How much gas was used to serve the eniter keg at these specific examples. 15.5 gallons of 10 psi CO2???? LOL, thanks for the starting info though. See, we are so much more mature than the other boards, and have so much more fun, lol.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I just want a cheaper version of one of these....

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOOKAMAX-hookah...ryZ16056QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


I'd say maybe a hobby airbrush compressor might be the best bet. They're generally oilless and will make upwards of 40 PSI. Just need a way to restrict their intake so they aren't collecting the surrounding air...

Oh wait... no you don't. I think I have an idea.... I use plastic carboys as an example as I know they will hold some pressure. I am not suggesting they actually be used to develop high pressures... it's just for the visual...

Two plastic carboys, one higher than the other, connected airtight by a tube. Each carboy has an airtight valve on top. Fill the lower carboy with 5 gallons of star-san, the upper carboy filled with air. Open the valve on the upper carboy to the atmosphere.

The lower carboy's valve is connected to the fermenter. As the fermentation occurs, it displaces the starsan solution until you have 5 gallons of pure CO2 in the lower carboy. No purging is necessary because the entire headspace is consumed by water. So it will be very pure CO2.

Once the lower carboy is full of CO2, it will start bubbling, just like a giant airlock. At this time, hook the compressor (doesn't even have to be oilless) up to the high side. Connect the lower side (full of CO2) to your collection vessel (which will have to get purged in this process). Now start the pump on the high side, which will compress the water back into the lower container, in the process, compressing the CO2 into your collection vessel.

When done, close the valve on your collection vessel and release the pressure from the top of the upper carboy.

 

[macs]

I was meaning serving already carbonated beer at 10 psi @ 40*F. How much gas was used to serve the eniter keg at these specific examples. 15.5 gallons of 10 psi CO2???? LOL, thanks for the starting info though. See, we are so much more mature than the other boards, and have so much more fun, lol.

Oh...sorry....I think the room temp ratio of dissolved alcohol to my brain's volume in cc's is reaching toxic levels. Think I'll have another homebrew...

 

[Bobby_M]

The problem though is that serving is one thing, but long term storage and mantanance of the carbonation level is another. Given that you already figured out how many volumes of carb you wanted, say 2.5 per the pressure/temp chart and arrive at 12psi required. As soon as the pressure drops below that, you're losing carbonation. This wouldn't be an issue if you think you're going to blow through 15 gallons of beer in a night, but otherwise......



To answer your specific brain teaser:
Originally Posted by wortmonger

1). How much CO2 is needed to serve a full 15.5 gallon keg, at "lets say" 10 psi with the CO2 being at room temperature of 68*F and the beer keg being at 40*F?


Really good question and I don't know if I have the knowledge to figure it out. But I'll think out loud to get you started. It's easy enough to apply the initial 10psi to the minut headspace of a full 1/2 barrel keg. It's figuring out how much you have to start with to make sure you END with 10psi minimum. There's probably a neat formula or calculator online to help with Dalton's law (combined gas)... yup http://www.1728.com/combined.htm

If you have 60psi in a 5 gallon corny at 70F, if realeased into 15 gallons at 40F your pressure should end up at 11psi.

Now, if you bring the orginal size down to 1.5 gallons (about the size of a 5lb tank I assume) and leave the pressure the same at 60psi, you could conceivably push the whole keg but you'd end up around 3psi and the beer would be going flat for some time.

In order to hold the full 10psi all the way through, you'd need 175psi in a 1.5gallon container.

Here's the rub. You'll probably have to manually regulate the pressure to the serving keg because regulators only work accurately with some minimum high side pressure. I suppose you could buy and rig fixed/variable overpressure valve but that's getting really high on the DIY meter.

 

[WortMonger]

What about some sort of a pressure switch and actuated valve ran off batteries or something. LOL, I they could sense a lower than set-point deference in pressure and actuate a shot from your CO2. I am looking right now for something simpler, but I am thinking automated injection to a set psi is the only way I would want it, and cheaper....much cheaper than these pressure switches on mcmastercarr I am staring at.

 

[WortMonger]

What about this for filling and compressing the CO2 to 100 psi in the 5# tank?

Light Duty Oilless Air Compressor/Vacuum Pump
Get a portable low-flow compressor and vacuum pump in one unit. Great for operating small air-powered tools, inflating tires, and draining liquid from small tanks. Unit has an oilless design, which means it dispenses air that's 100% oil free for clean operation and low maintenance. It also has a one-stage wobble piston design and is rated for continuous operation. Powered by a direct-drive single-phase motor with thermal overload protection. Includes a 15-ft. rubber air hose, tire chuck, filter, and 6-ft. cord with three-prong plug. Outlet is 1/4" NPT male. UL listed and CSA certified.

This little baby would come in handy for numerous other uses around the house, and as a nice way to vacuum seal my grain storage bins. It says oilless, so I am thinking that is all you need for safety/taste/odor concerns? I would be willing to bet it gets all its compressor air from the vacuum hose and vice versa.