"house flavor" tartness...

[Brewskii]

My beers all seem to have a underlying astringency that I find off- putting. What am I doing wrong? Im thinking this may be water related?

I use RO or distilled water exclusively and I do 5.5 gallon all-grain and some PM batches. I have done many (like 10) using a cooler MLT w/ false bottom and I have used gypsum additions on my hoppier beers like ipas and bitters ( only in the kettle and 1-2 tsp ber 5.5 gal). My system is consistent at 72% efficiency and im not oversparging. The last recipe I made that was like this looks like this...


5 lbs Amber DME
8 oz crystal 90
8oz crystal 40
2.5 lbs pale malt

Partial mash at 152
Add DME to boil @ 20 min

1oz Northdown @ 60 min

1oz Fuggle @ 30 min

1oz Fuggle @ 0 min

 

[Brewskii]

I use US05 and ferment at 68 most of the time, if that helps. I add the gypsum to the boil mostly because I read others do that. Should I add it to the mash? Didn't know what my pH is in the mash.

 

[MacGruber]

I thought that adding gypsum was only supposed to be done to the mash if necessary in order to hit the appropriate ph level for conversion. That may be why you're getting a strange flavor.

 

[Shooter]

Do you add anything back to your water?!?!? I've used distilled for extract batches, but I've never used it for all-grain or a PM. Heck, I even use tap or spring water for the steeping portion of the extract batches where I do use extract for my fermentables.

 

[Brewskii]

Do you add anything back to your water?!?!? I've used distilled for extract batches, but I've never used it for all-grain or a PM. Heck, I even use tap or spring water for the steeping portion of the extract batches where I do use extract for my fermentables.

Nope. Should I? I know people do... Never saw any threads that suggested what ... Like a base water recipe. My fermentations are strong and I never thought about mash pH until I identified this common taste amongst my ales.

 

[MacGruber]

Is there anything wrong with your tap water? I literally use hose water for my beers and the ph is just fine. I heat the hose water to my strike temp and mash in after I heat the tun. I've never had a problem and the beers turn out awesome!

 

[Shooter]

Most sources I've seen don't recommend straight RO/distilled water for mashing. You could try buying some spring water and see if using that causes the taste to go away, might give you a better idea if this is water related. I suspect it is.

 

[Yooper]

The very first thing I'd do is read the first post here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

I think a very simple water addition of some calcium chloride in the mash (or maybe gypsum) would work perfectly since you're starting with RO water. I would NOT add gypsum to the boil kettle, though, unless you knew precisely why you were doing that.

I would also not use amber DME, since it's got crystal malt in it and other "stuff" as well. Go with all light or extra light DME (it's the substitute for base malt) and get all flavor and color from the grains.

 

[mabrungard]

RO is well suited for extract brewing and minor steeping duties. That is not the problem. The amount of gypsum might be a source of the 'astringency' problem if its over done. I'm not sure what the 1 to 2 tsp of gypsum equates to regarding the sulfate level. In most cases, a brewer would not want that sulfate level to go above 100 ppm and keeping it less than 50 ppm range is good goal in beers that aren't hop focused. Calcium chloride might be a better water amendment in that case. The recomendations of the Water Primer should be OK in this case since RO is used.

I see that the OP performed a mini mash with that last beer. With RO and the large amount of crystal malts, it likely that the mini mash pH was in the right range. This is a case where Bru'n Water can be used to assess the resulting pH of the mini mash and if other water adjustments including acid malt or acid additions are needed.

As Yooper says, stick with the lighter DME and LME products and add your own accessory grains to create the flavor and color you want. Don't start with amber or dark products. That is not the way to good results.

 

[GaryJohn]

I also got astringent flavors in my beers regularly, but I don't any more. Try these things:

1. Proper grain crush. Don't crush too finely...just enough to crack the hulls. The husks can cause astringency.

2. Reduce sparge time and temperature. Sparge under 170*. Don't do it for longer than 20mins. See if it helps. Same reasoning here...the grain hulls, if they are heated too much, can contribute to astringency.

3. Use VERY GOOD sanitation. A mild infection can cause astringent flavors.

I can't think of anything else right now...I've got a list of "astringent counter-measures" at home...I'll take a look later and update if I missed anything.

EDIT: I see its steeped grains, not a mash/sparge. So try steeping them for a shorter time (depending on how long you're doing it already) and make double-sure your temps aren't too high. Also, make sure the grain crush is good as well as sanitation.

 

[Yooper]

My beers all seem to have a underlying astringency that I find off- putting. What am I doing wrong? Im thinking this may be water related?

I use RO or distilled water exclusively and I do 5.5 gallon all-grain and some PM batches. I have done many (like 10) using a cooler MLT w/ false bottom and I have used gypsum additions on my hoppier beers like ipas and bitters ( only in the kettle and 1-2 tsp ber 5.5 gal). My system is consistent at 72% efficiency and im not oversparging. The last recipe I made that was like this looks like this...


5 lbs Amber DME
8 oz crystal 90
8oz crystal 40
2.5 lbs pale malt

Partial mash at 152
Add DME to boil @ 20 min

1oz Northdown @ 60 min

1oz Fuggle @ 30 min

1oz Fuggle @ 0 min

A "tartness" is not astringency. I wonder if you're tasting tartness if that is a yeast driven flavor and not at all related to the mash or boil. Underpitching of yeast, and a too-high fermentation temperature can definitely cause some tart flavors.

 

[Shooter]

Sometimes people describe a mouth puckering astringency as tart, but I'm also curious if that's what the OP is experiencing. My water is pretty decent and I usually just add campden to remove chloramine. So, I have very little experience having to adjust water. However, I do agree that, if I was starting with RO water, the first thing that sprang to mind to add probably wouldn't be gypsum. Do you have a way to measure the pH of the mash? Even though I never have any major issues in that area, I still always test mine with a test strip.

 

[Brewskii]

The very first thing I'd do is read the first post here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

I think a very simple water addition of some calcium chloride in the mash (or maybe gypsum) would work perfectly since you're starting with RO water. I would NOT add gypsum to the boil kettle, though, unless you knew precisely why you were doing that.

Will do on the brewing water chem post.

I would also not use amber DME, since it's got crystal malt in it and other "stuff" as well. Go with all light or extra light DME (it's the substitute for base malt)

Yep... Knew that was coming- this particular one I was trying to duplicate a friends ESB kit from a iPhone at the LHBS. This reminds me that I need to work on converting this to AG because I actually like it a lot.

 

[Brewskii]

A "tartness" is not astringency. I wonder if you're tasting tartness if that is a yeast driven flavor and not at all related to the mash or boil. Underpitching of yeast, and a too-high fermentation temperature can definitely cause some tart flavors.

Well, it's dry on the finish and has a tangy note on the back end kind of up there around the hop bitter... I noticed it more in the last week ( month after bottling) and it's subtle.
I hesitate to use the word " sour " cause everyone jumps to infection. I strongly feel this is not the case.

 

[Brewskii]

Sometimes people describe a mouth puckering astringency as tart, but I'm also curious if that's what the OP is experiencing. My water is pretty decent and I usually just add campden to remove chloramine. So, I have very little experience having to adjust water. However, I do agree that, if I was starting with RO water, the first thing that sprang to mind to add probably wouldn't be gypsum. Do you have a way to measure the pH of the mash? Even though I never have any major issues in that area, I still always test mine with a test strip.

I'm just getting into this water chem stuff ( no kidding, right) so I will from now on. this note is really bothering me and I think my process is otherwise pretty tight.

 

[Shooter]

I'm just getting into this water chem stuff ( no kidding, right) so I will from now on. this note is really bothering me and I think my process is otherwise pretty tight.

For me, water chemisty is one of those things I'll probably delve into more when it becomes necessary. So far, it hasn't been necessary. I do check my pH as a standard practice and remove chloramines, but I'm lucky with my water that way.

 

[Trencher]

If your tartness comes on a month after bottling, and continues to increase, it's almost certainly an infection. Virtually nothing else would cause the flavor to increase over time in a finished beer.
I had a similar problem some time back, my beer would taste great out of the fermenter and the first couple weeks after bottling, but eventually it would develop a lemony taste. I was using great sanitation practices but finally traced the issue to my bottling bucket. One of the drawbacks to plastic is that it scratches easily and the scratches can harbor bacteria regardless of your sanitation practices - unless you autoclave the whole bucket, I guess. After I replaced my bottling bucket the problem was solved.
The best replacement for your bottling bucket is a keg. :-D Seriously, I now do all of my bottling from a pressurized keg, and since the stainless can be more reliably sanitized I never have to worry about replacing it. A new bottling bucket would do the job too, and you should consider replacing all post-fermentation plastic items once a year.