Hot Side LODO - What am I missing?

[day_trippr]

[...]The claim that "this beer I just made using LODO is better than the same beer I made a month ago without LODO" has almost zero value as evidence in my opinion.[...]

I understand that, and having nothing more to offer than my own anecdotal experience I can only suggest you give the basics a try and see where it leads you...

Cheers!

 

[Iseneye]

Cold side is absolutely necessary no matter who you are..

According to one other thread on HBT, cold side oxidation is a myth and you should feel free to splash your finished beer into your bottles with no effect on the beer. I'm paraphrasing a bit.

I was brought around to Die Beerery's way of thinking a while ago. I make beer to satisfy my own taste and nobody else (I don't enter competitions). Going LODO has improved my beers to my taste so am happy with the change. If someone doesn't want to change their process and are happy with their beers then it is no skin off my nose. Enjoy your beers but don't say there is no difference when you haven't tried it for yourself.

 

[AMessenger]

@Die_Beerery said it today in a way that perfectly encapsulates our present thinking (I’m paraphrasing):

If the lingering, fresh malt flavors we advocate are something of value to you, then hot side is absolutely necessary. If not, it’s not.

Cold side is absolutely necessary no matter who you are.

Ultimately, the goal is to help people achieve a goal they desire, not talk people into doing something that doesn’t matter to them. That’s why it’s less important to prevent some sweeping set of evidence “proving” our position. It’s a matter of someone’s sensory analysis of thier own beer telling them they want to pursue it.

We have no beef with anyone either way.

Seeing how much time and energy you guys have invested in this it would be hard to believe that confirmation bias could explain away your claims. I would bet there is some flavor difference using your method. The real question is: how significant is the impact?

Would a normal person, unaware of the technique used to make the wort, be able to detect any difference in a beer made using your methods from one that was brewed the normal way? Is the difference so subtle that you would need to have a lot of practice picking it out (as I imagine you guys have) in order to notice it?

That doesn't constitute proof, of course, but if you had data that showed that there was some significant difference I would think that would be very helpful in your efforts to promote the process. It would certainly be helpful for someone like me who is interested in the concept but uncertain that the benefits justify the extra cost.

 

[mongoose33]

Seeing how much time and energy you guys have invested in this it would be hard to believe that confirmation bias could explain away your claims. I would bet there is some flavor difference using your method. The real question is: how significant is the impact?

How would you like to measure that?

Would a normal person, unaware of the technique used to make the wort, be able to detect any difference in a beer made using your methods from one that was brewed the normal way? Is the difference so subtle that you would need to have a lot of practice picking it out (as I imagine you guys have) in order to notice it?

To me, it's not subtle, it's a richness and fullness of flavor that is superior to brewing w/o LODO techniques. That is, when I've hit on the recipe.

That doesn't constitute proof, of course, but if you had data that showed that there was some significant difference I would think that would be very helpful in your efforts to promote the process. It would certainly be helpful for someone like me who is interested in the concept but uncertain that the benefits justify the extra cost.

Yeah, having objective measures would be terrific. Problem is, people taste things differently. For example, there are hop flavors some people can't detect. I don't care for spaghetti sauce as anything made with that tastes, to me, like gruel. That's all the more perplexing as I've witnessed people eating spaghetti w/ tomato sauce and it's as if they're having a religious experience. Me? No.

I am not a super taster, but I know what I like.

When I started this I took it on a bit of faith that there would be something there. Part was as you note above, who'd do all this just for something that's nothing more than confirmation bias? Part was knowing what oxygen does.

I'm a scientist; only one way I know will give me an answer to this. That is, either compare someone else's LODO beer to the same recipe brewed non-LODO, or brew it myself and see if I can detect a difference. The former wasn't available, so the latter--try it myself--was the only option.

I think I know where you are--you want some clear evidence it's worth making the investment in equipment and the extra time involved in doing LODO brewing, before you commit. I've been there. I had the same desire.

What you might try is this: two mini-mashes, one using as many LODO techniques as you can (e.g., pre-boil the water then cool to strike temp, crush grain just before mashing in, underletting the grain, using a mash cap), and another where you do the normal thing. Get the water right. If you really want to go whole hog, use some crushed campden tablet in the LODO to scavenge the O2 that inevitably gets in.

Stir (gently) twice during the mash, such that you do not splash the LODO mash, keep covered w/ mash cap the rest of the time, make sure temps are close between the two.

Then, taste the wort at the end. Then, you can be the judge instead of hoping, as I did, that others' evaluations are correct.

*************

I brewed my Funky Rye yesterday. First time doing that recipe with LODO techniques. I tasted the wort, of course, as it went into the kettle. Wow. Flavorful and sweet. Normally, wort tastes, to me, sort of "meh." It's a sweetness that's there, but depth of flavor is shallow. Not with this.

I bought a Tilt hydrometer to help me time racking to a keg for spunding, but one thing is for sure: my patience will be tested with this one. I'm terribly anxious to get a taste of the finished product. BTW, the fermentation gases coming off the fermenter are being used to purge the receiving keg.

 

[MSK_Chess]

How would you like to measure that?

I bought a Tilt hydrometer to help me time racking to a keg for spunding, but one thing is for sure: my patience will be tested with this one. I'm terribly anxious to get a taste of the finished product. BTW, the fermentation gases coming off the fermenter are being used to purge the receiving keg.

Spunding for me personally is really tricky or rather getting the timing right is tricky for it relies on so many parameters. British yeast is notoriously fast to drop, Lager yeast not nearly as fast and will remain in suspension longer. One one occasion I had to introduce fresh yeast as one does in krausening to reach my FG. I now rely not so much on gravity but on how the beer looks, waiting till high Kraisen is over and transferring then, but not so much over that there is not enough to finish the ferment. Perhaps you will have more accuracy with your new piece of kit?

 

[beersk]

I applaud the work you LODO guys are doing and if I were to bet on it I would say it was likely you were on to something.

It just seems like there is a lack of any evidence based analysis behind the work being done. The claim that "this beer I just made using LODO is better than the same beer I made a month ago without LODO" has almost zero value as evidence in my opinion. This is the sort of evidence that LODO is hanging its hat on at the moment. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've actually done a side-by-side on a helles. The difference is very apparent.