Hot Side Aereation references

[Taket_al_Tauro]

What does ROS stand for?

Reactive Oxygen Species. I assume that is what @McMullan was talking about, but please correct me if I'm wrong. As a saying in our parts goes, some water has flown under bridges since my last biochemistry class.

 

[McMullan]

Your mistake is that you assume he is arguing in good faith.

The LODO crowd, it seems to me, believe reducing oxidation leads to a) better stability and b) subjectively, better taste.

His argument now, as it's changed a bit over the course of this thread, is that long term stability isn't important to a homebrewer, and that taste is subjective. So although he is arguing with everyone in this tread, he doesn't actually dispute what the LODO folk are saying.

He merely disagrees whether one of the two "benefits" is an important goal for homebrewers while ignoring the other. Of course he probably agrees that better tasting beer is an important goal. But he dismisses it as subjective and unprovable, which, duh.

Unfortunately, that is how every one of these discussions goes.

The best beers, home brew and commercial, don’t hang around long enough to go stale. If yours do, you’re making too much.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

His argument now, as it's changed a bit over the course of this thread, is that long term stability isn't important to a homebrewer, and that taste is subjective.

Long term stability is definitely important to me and to many other homebrewers as well, I'd argue.
Hoppy beers I'll try to consume them as soon as humanly possible, but for a number of other styles, I often find them as good or sometimes even better at the 4-5 month mark. Then saisons and bretty stuff, well of course even much longer.
So I can't see why this shouldn't be important for a homebrewer, especially for one like me who brews larger batches but only a few times a year.

Of course we can handle our beers with care and most of us can store them in a cool dark place all the time.
That makes a big difference to macro beer being shipped everywhere and unter all conditions.
But then again, I often give away my beers to people wo are most definitely no beer geeks. Are they going to put them in the fridge or at least in a cool basement? Are they going to keep them away from light? Not sure...
So yeah, long term stability kinda matters to me. I want both me and the people I give my beer to be able to enjoy it even after a few months.

 

[murphyslaw]

The best beers, home brew and commercial, don’t hang around long enough to go stale. If yours do, you’re making too much.

Yes, I understand your opinion on whether one of the 2 stated goals of LODO is worthwhile.

But you don't dispute that LODO techniques can reduce oxidation and prolong stability. And you don't you don't dispute that some people might prefer the taste of beer brewed with lodo techniques.

So, what are you doing here?

 

[murphyslaw]

Long term stability is definitely important to me and to many other homebrewers as well, I'd argue.
Hoppy beers I'll try to consume them as soon as humanly possible, but for a number of other styles, I often find them as good or sometimes even better at the 4-5 month mark. Then saisons and bretty stuff, well of course even much longer.
So I can't see why this shouldn't be important for a homebrewer, especially for one like me who brews larger batches but only a few times a year.

Of course we can handle our beers with care and most of us can store them in a cool dark place all the time.
That makes a big difference to macro beer being shipped everywhere and unter all conditions.
But then again, I don't know about you, but I often give away my beers to people wo are most definitely no beer geeks. Are they going to put them in the fridge or at least in a cool basement? Are they going to keep them away from light? Not sure...
So yeah, long term stability kinda matters to me. I want both me and the people I give my beer to be able to enjoy it even after a few months.

Yeah, I don't disagree with you. But this guy's only argument is that he doesn't think long term stability is important. For all his rants about "data" he's not disputing that LODO can produce more stable beer. He's not disputing that you might find it more flavorful.

 

[McMullan]

His argument now, as it's changed a bit over the course of this thread…

I think your confusion is what’s changed a bit. My views - about a little hot air - have been consistent throughout this thread and in others. I think my moving from a challenge for data to dropping in endogenous barley, hop and yeast ROS loads might have created a ‘rabbit-headlight’ moment for you. Please accept my apologies. It’s not my intention to cause confusion.

 

[davidabcd]

if you are interested, you will need to find the books and papers using your own means. Hopefully, you can get loans from libraries or through a University that does exchange with others.

Posted in error.

ROS

It was a typo--it's actually "ROUS"--Rodents Of Unusual Size. At least, that's how I understood it.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Yeah, I don't disagree with you. But this guy's only argument is that he doesn't think long term stability is important. For all his rants about "data" he's not disputing that LODO can produce more stable beer. He's not disputing that you might find it more flavorful. He's just a troll.

Yeah sorry, did not want to argue, in fact it was just a general statement to underline the notion that, for me, long term stability is an important feature that I strive to achieve in my homebrew.

It was a typo--it's actually "ROUS"--Rodents Of Unusual Size. At least, that's how I understood it.

THANKS for correcting mate! Now I remember it all again, from my biochemistry class!
In that case macros are actually more likely to get them than we.

 

[davidabcd]

THANKS for correcting mate! Now I remember it all again, from my biochemistry class!
In that case macros are actually more likely to get them than we.

It is nasty when it happens, trust me.
Seriously, I didn't know what any of the acronyms meant before this thread except for a vague idea of LODO since I've seen it around.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Seriously, I didn't know what any of the acronyms meant before this thread except for a vague idea of LODO since I've seen it around.

My apologies, one should always explain the acronyms he/she employs, that is good scientific practice. Unfortunately, here we are all just a bunch of homebrewers trying to play with science ;-)

 

[McMullan]

Long term stability is definitely important to me and to many other homebrewers as well, I'd argue.
Hoppy beers I'll try to consume them as soon as humanly possible, but for a number of other styles, I often find them as good or sometimes even better at the 4-5 month mark. Then saisons and bretty stuff, well of course even much longer.
So I can't see why this shouldn't be important for a homebrewer, especially for one like me who brews larger batches but only a few times a year.

Of course we can handle our beers with care and most of us can store them in a cool dark place all the time.
That makes a big difference to macro beer being shipped everywhere and unter all conditions.
But then again, I don't know about you, but I often give away my beers to people wo are most definitely no beer geeks. Are they going to put them in the fridge or at least in a cool basement? Are they going to keep them away from light? Not sure...
So yeah, long term stability kinda matters to me. I want both me and the people I give my beer to be able to enjoy it even after a few months.

Is a few months ‘long term’? Some of my bigger beers remain stable for at least several months. Including English strong bitters and IPAs. It might take a few months or longer to condition a Pilsner before it gets consumed fresh. Cool storage temperature helps an awful lot, I think. Some commercial beers might sit on a warm shelf for several months before someone buys them. Like many factors, time (long vs short) isn’t as binary as we like to believe. One of my beers made without intervention to limit oxidation and stored well might remain more stable than a commercial beer brewed with every LODO intervention applied but stored poorly. So keeping it cool is potentially a lot more important than a little hot air during the mash.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Is a few months ‘long term’?

Yeah it is all relative. When you listen to the haze bois, a month is long term (sometimes long term starts at 2-3 weeks for them).
So it seems you agree that "ordinary" beer should be highly enjoyable for a few months at the very least.
I also do not believe that I need LODO to get there (edit: that based on my experience AND, most important of all, my very subjective and untrained taste buds!), but I'll try to keep my mind open. Who knows in a few years from now if I'm not going to give it a go.

 

[davidabcd]

My apologies, one should always explain the acronyms he/she employs, that is good scientific practice. Unfortunately, here we are all just a bunch of homebrewers trying to play with science ;-)

It's no problem all. This is an advanced topic and the burden is on me. Finding the acronyms is fairly easy.

 

[murphyslaw]

Good grief with these responses that cold side practices are important. Are there many lodo proponents who use mash caps and then store their finished beer in open bottles in a sauna?

Every LODO proponent I've read would agree that cold side practices are more important. The LODO folk believe they have mastered the cold side and are looking at the next part of their process that can be improved.

This is like a greatest hits album of strawman arguments.

 

[Miraculix]

Mash cap..... the tin foil hat of home brew science? We do not know.....

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Good grief with these responses that cold side practices are important. Are there many lodo proponents who use mash caps and then store their finished beer in open bottles in a sauna?

Every LODO proponent I've read would agree that cold side practices are more important. The LODO folk believe they have mastered the cold side and are looking at the next part of their process that can be improved.

This is like a greatest hits album of strawman arguments.

Apologies if my comments helped lead the thread into commonplace and self-evidence territory.
I just wanted to leave a comment about that ROS-theory that puzzled me, and I was kinda drawn in...
I know very well that LODO folks find cold-side practices even more important than hot side, and the first wouldn't work without the second.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Mash cap..... the tin foil hat of home brew science? We do not know.....

But tin foil might leach metals into the mash promoting oxidizing Fenton reactions Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[McMullan]

What’s a ‘mash cap’?

Mash cap..... the tin foil hat of home brew science? We do not know.....

I imagined it being one of these and that it has to be worn by the head masher to warn others in the neighborhood about potentially low O2 levels after deaeration protocols then mashing under nitrogen. It probably has a little flashing light on top and a warning siren at mash out.

 

[Miraculix]

But tin foil might leach metals into the mash promoting oxidizing Fenton reactions Sorry, couldn't resist.

Ha! Cross reference! Well done!

 

[murphyslaw]

Apologies if my comments helped lead the thread into commonplace and self-evidence territory.
I just wanted to leave a comment about that ROS-theory that puzzled me, and I was kinda drawn in...
I know very well that LODO folks find cold-side practices even more important than hot side, and the first wouldn't work without the second.

Not at all. I should have quoted the person I was referring to.

 

[tracer bullet]

This is like a greatest hits album of strawman arguments.

Feels like it at times.

HSA is a myth
HSA may be real but only macros benefit
HSA is real and homebrewers might also benefit but if so just aren't drinking fast enough

LODO beers taste different. Better or worse is up to you.

From the first post. Seems a bit hard to argue with. But here we are.

 

[davidabcd]

RO(U)S Magnification 400X.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Not at all. I should have quoted the person I was referring to.

Ah right, thanks all is good

The LODO guys are right about stepping out of this thread, it has become a carnival.
Maybe it's even appropriate, we are almost there...
(Don't know if you guys across the pond in the US celebrate carnival, I believe in some places yes, probably not everywhere?).
Anyway, high time to step out for me as well

 

[Miraculix]

Now, at the end of this marvelous journey, everybody might reflect on how all the other guys felt whose threads were hijacked by the lodoists.

 

[McMullan]

Feels like it at times.

HSA is a myth
HSA may be real but only macros benefit
HSA is real and homebrewers might also benefit but if so just aren't drinking fast enough



From the first post. Seems a bit hard to argue with. But here we are.

‘HSA’ = hot side aeration

Does a little hot air in the mash matter? A little aeration isn’t necessarily what causes oxidation in the mash. Of course oxidation reactions are occurring in the mash, but under which circumstances does it matter to home brewers? When they believe it does? Is it ‘LOw Dissolved Oxygen‘ brewing or ‘LOw Dissolved Oxidant’ brewing? Just asking for a friend.

 

[davidabcd]

(Don't know if you guys across the pond in the US celebrate carnival, I believe in some places yes, probably not everywhere?).

After checking it out on Google, I'm not sure it's a thing here but it wouldn't be the first thing we celebrate that I don't know about.
We celebrate some things, more or less, just to have a drink (St Patrick's Day and Cinco de Mayo).

 

[Miraculix]

After checking it out on Google, I'm not sure it's a thing here but it wouldn't be the first thing we celebrate that I don't know about.
We celebrate some things, more or less, just to have a drink (St Patrick's Day and Cinco de Mayo).

Just to have a drink.....


...... That sir, is THE utmost relevant reason to celebrate a thing!

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

everybody might reflect on how all the other guys felt whose threads were hijacked by the lodoists.

.... and so it all began.
Sorry, I promised to step out but couldn't resist
Now I believe to have somehow matured into a more open-minded view of the movement, but, oh well ;-)

 

[BeerAndTele]

Fender player: "man, I love the way my Strat sounds through my Deluxe."
Gibson player: "yeah, well, the sound of my Les Paul thru my Marshall stack sounds great too."
Fender player: "I never said it didn't. It's fine for you."
Gibson player: "your Strat tone isn't all that, you know."
Fender player: "oh, okay, so I guess Clapton, Beck and Vaughn don't know anything about good tone??"
Gibson player: "I never said that. Besides, Jimmy Page's Les Paul tone was the best ever on the 'Stairway to Heaven' solo."
Fender player: "Actually, Page played a Tele on that solo."
Gibson player: "But you can't prove that."
Fender player: "You guys are so defensive."
Both men walk away irritated.

 

[cmac62]

Yes, in certain home brew situations, I agree, the use of antioxidants, like vitamin C, might well have a genuine application, e.g. dry hopping heavily hopped beers. Absolutely. But it's not a binary choice, generally, for home brewers.

I started using AA and the other stuff because transferring to a purged keg seemed like a pain and I wanted to reduce the Ox of my beers during trf. It has seemed to work to my taste buds, so it is definitely not an all or nothing situation.