Horrible Lager.. What went wrong?

[PVH]

While the recipe is strange, it sounds to me like most of the problem is that this is the OP's first lager. The yeasts are totally different, and throw off some vile tastes and odors sometimes. Underpitching at 78F and then cooling almost 30 degrees doesn't help, either.

I always taste my hydro sample before lagering, and it almost always tastes weird. Like others have said, that's why you lager a lager.

 

[beerrepository]

Shaking head vigorously at this "This is why I caution new brewers NOT to taste anything til it's done."

I consider it most important for new brewers to taste at every possible step of the way. Your first batches are a learning experience. How would a new brewer know when it's done? Hydrometer isn't going to tell him that the Lager process is over, just going to be relying on various off the cuff rules like so many weeks per gravity points, etc.

TASTE TASTE TASTE TILL BUBBLES ARE SHOOTING OUT OF YOUR NOSE and then take another sip for good measure.

But you have no idea what you are tasting or what it even means when you are starting off. I think what Revvy is trying to drive home is that early on when you are not really sure what is going on, you are going to cause way more harm than good tasting an unfinished process. Hence all the freakout posts from beginning brewers.

 

[Indyking]

Indyking,

I shook it up before I saw signs of fermentation. Not suer if this is the same as what you meant.

Diacety Rest?

l I brought it up from 52* to 64* over about 5 days, then racked it to secondary to begin lagering at sub-40*

That's what you said:

I didn't see activity for 2.5 days or so. I oxygenated by shaking my carboy vigorously. When I didn't see activity at day 2, I gave it another shake.

Which means, at day 2 after pitching, you shaked it

Just because you did not notice signs of fermentation at day 2, it does not mean it was not fermenting! It was a bad idea.

Nevertheless, like I said before, your recipe was just very unbalanced and inappropriate for the style and the diacetyl rest was way too long, sorry to say this. Pilsner is the lager type most sensitive to off-tastes and there were plenty of opportunities for undesirable flavors in your beer.

It happens, I once tried to make an ”waste basket ale”, by combining all the left over ingredients I had in stock and the result was catastrophic... I still drank it though because it was in the light hoppy side, but yours... I'm not sure I would stand that much bitterness... Pilsners can't hide anything!

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

-pitched Wyeast CZECH pils at about 78*

Aside from going through the Lagering, this jumped out at me. That's too warm to pitch for an Ale let alone a Lager. Next time try to pitch when you get your wort chilled down closer to your target Fermentation temp.

 

[Kula]

yea, i think i'm trying to find a balance between samc's 'taste, taste, taste' and revvy's 'don't judge a beer til it's done'

because i think both ways of looking at it are vaild.

appreciate all the responses, it's really helping me think out my entire process.

the good news is i started an oatmeal stout about the same time as this 'ill pils', and that one is tasting real gooooooood.

so at least the pipeline is safe!

 

[PVH]

so at least the pipeline is safe!

Exactly!

 

[Kula]

good points on the pitching temp guys. i've been reading a bit more about that lately and it seems integral in getting those little bastards off on the right foot.

if it turns out, great, if it doesn't, i've already learned a lot about looking at my process every step of the way.

clearly, lager yeasts are a temperamental breed.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

will i continue to taste the beer before it's bottled? yes, i likely will. i prefer to see how the beer changes, what flavors will mellow out, and which wont. the process is what fascinates me.

I agree with samc on this one. EVERY home brewer does it (OK, 99.9% of them) so telling them not to is just a waste. It's part of the learning process and I think they SHOULD do it.

I also agree with whoever posted earlier that lagering isn't some miracle work. None of my best lagers (nor any beers) were terrible after the fermentation was done and the yeast had settled reasonably well. They do improve but it rarely turns 'undrinkable' into 'delicious'.

Hopefully it will improve a bunch and you'll like it. But if not just chalk it up to learning. Make enough beer and you'll make some stinkers; we all do. Either that or your standards are very low or you have pretty-baby-syndrome (which I think most of us have to some degree).

 

[Indyking]

good points on the pitching temp guys. i've been reading a bit more about that lately and it seems integral in getting those little bastards off on the right foot.

if it turns out, great, if it doesn't, i've already learned a lot about looking at my process every step of the way.

clearly, lager yeasts are a temperamental breed.

Don't be undiscouraged if your beer end up tasting bad.

All great textbook authors say the same: Pilsner is the most difficult style to brew, especially in a homebrew set up.

We learn from our mistakes...

 

[rycov]

probably gonna get yelled at. i don't have temp control. if i brewed a lager at room temperature then lagered it in the fridge long enough would the flavors from high ferm temps lager out? please don't hit me.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

probably gonna get yelled at. i don't have temp control. if i brewed a lager at room temperature then lagered it in the fridge long enough would the flavors from high ferm temps lager out? please don't hit me.

That would be a California Common or Steam Beer.

 

[rycov]

would it work kinda like that for any lager yeast/ recipe? like say i wanted to brew a maibock but just dont have temp control so i ferment it at room temp and lager when im done? does it take longer to lager if i did it that way? does it completely change the beer or just a little (i didnt even think about steam beer lol.)

 

[ezzieyguywuf]

wildwest,

good suggestion on the starter.

before this brew, i've only rehydrated dry yeast before pitching my 5 gallon batches and had decent results as far as i could tell.

building starters, cultivating yeast counts, and establishing correct pitching rates is something i am just now beginning to study up on.

So you used dry lager yeast? From what I've read (Palmer's How to Brew, 1st ed) dry lager yeast is unreliable as a lager yeast and behaves more like an ale yeast.

Sent from my HTC Vision using Home Brew Talk

 

[PVH]

would it work kinda like that for any lager yeast/ recipe? like say i wanted to brew a maibock but just dont have temp control so i ferment it at room temp and lager when im done? does it take longer to lager if i did it that way? does it completely change the beer or just a little (i didnt even think about steam beer lol.)

In short, no. The lager yeasts will throw lots of weird stuff at high temps. Lagering will not erase it all.

If you're going for lager-like beers without great temp control, you might try using a clean ale yeast at low ale temps, which you can get using a simple swamp cooler. Notty is a good choice, as it is happy in the upper 50s. There are several recipes at least on this site. Try "Oktoberfest with ale yeast" or similar.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

would it work kinda like that for any lager yeast/ recipe? like say i wanted to brew a maibock but just dont have temp control so i ferment it at room temp and lager when im done? does it take longer to lager if i did it that way? does it completely change the beer or just a little (i didnt even think about steam beer lol.)

Yes, Lager yeast likes to work in the low 50's for the most part. Once you start getting into high temp fermentation, the profile of the beer changes, thus no longer being a Lager. Lagers are all about fermenting in the proper range and then extended Lagering. Not having made a Steam Beer or even had one, i couldn't tell you what all the changes would be, but it would definitely be a different beer.

 

[Kula]

If you're going for lager-like beers without great temp control, you might try using a clean ale yeast at low ale temps, which you can get using a simple swamp cooler. Notty is a good choice, as it is happy in the upper 50s. There are several recipes at least on this site. Try "Oktoberfest with ale yeast" or similar.

- Thanks! Good suggestion..

right now my basement is about 50* and i can lager a 3 gallon in my fridge.

my conclusion is that the brew will mellow, but i don't think it's going to be very good. i think i picked up the crazy acrid taste and rubbery notes from stressed yeast, the result of pitching depleted bugs from a past-its-prime smack pack into a nearly 80* wort.

the freshness of the pils malt was questionable as well.

yes, my hopping was all wiggity, but i dont think over-hopping would produce the flavors that i'm talking about.

just gonna lager and see, then make the appropriate adjustments for the next batch!

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

But you have no idea what you are tasting or what it even means when you are starting off. I think what Revvy is trying to drive home is that early on when you are not really sure what is going on, you are going to cause way more harm than good tasting an unfinished process. Hence all the freakout posts from beginning brewers.

But that's a GREAT way to learn, by tasting. It isn't a difficult concept to grasp: Conditioning (to a point) will improve the flavors/aromas of your beers. Anybody can grasp that and once you do...taste away, and learn.

In fact, I think some people need to taste their beers MORE because some are implying that lagering is going to fix an almost undrinkable beer. That's almost never the case ime. How would I know that? Because I taste my beers at every step and always have.

Obv I feel very strongly on this. Telling people not to taste their beers (and worts, and ingredients, etc) at every step is practically sabotage. I'm not saying to grab a taste every day, just at steps where you already have a sample.

 

[rycov]

yeah. i taste so i can know. but i think its important to stress that at times it may taste like ass, and thats ok. just because revvy says don't do it though i doubt it would stop anyone. wont stop you will it? i see his point. people taste without knowing whats happening and its gross, then they want to dump they're beer or post a "i think i ruined my beer" thread. but i guess somethings you just have to learn.

 

[optimatored]

I know this doesnt help you now but make a yeast starter in advance next time... i ran your OG through mr malty and it said something way ridiculous with a 9 month mfd date. but anyway, make a starter! this way you know if you yeast is good before brew day.

 

[Kula]

true dat optimatored. definitely going to make starters in the future, especially for such a pooped-out smack pack. i dig the mr. malty calculator.

i really appreciate everyone that weighed in on the matter.

going to take a nip off this thing every three or four weeks to see if it begins to resemble beer. and i'll be sure to post when i do.

the putrid pils is currently l a g e r i n g @ 35*

 

[optimatored]

true dat optimatored. definitely going to make starters in the future, especially for such a pooped-out smack pack. i dig the mr. malty calculator.

i really appreciate everyone that weighed in on the matter.

going to take a nip off this thing every three or four weeks to see if it begins to resemble beer. and i'll be sure to post when i do.

the putrid pils is currently l a g e r i n g @ 35*

let us know how it turns out... i bet it mellows out a lot. cheers

 

[Kula]

still just gross. tasted a couple days ago and acrid vegetal taste remains. like drinking burnt gym socks. something just completely wrong. asked girlfriend to try and she said didnt taste too bad, then couldnt get funky taste off tongue. said it tasted rubbery or like plastic. today when i smelled it, it almost turned my stomach, the acrid smell, the off-putting stale and sour aromas. yuck.

:cross:

 

[Yooper]

still just gross. tasted a couple days ago and acrid vegetal taste remains. like drinking burnt gym socks. something just completely wrong. asked girlfriend to try and she said didnt taste too bad, then couldnt get funky taste off tongue. said it tasted rubbery or like plastic. today when i smelled it, it almost turned my stomach, the acrid smell, the off-putting stale and sour aromas. yuck.

:cross:

It sounds like underpitching with old yeast allowed a wild yeast or bacteria to ferment your beer. The tips for next time, making a huge starter, pitching at 50 degrees, etc, will make it 100% better next time.

 

[optimatored]

still just gross. tasted a couple days ago and acrid vegetal taste remains. like drinking burnt gym socks. something just completely wrong. asked girlfriend to try and she said didnt taste too bad, then couldnt get funky taste off tongue. said it tasted rubbery or like plastic. today when i smelled it, it almost turned my stomach, the acrid smell, the off-putting stale and sour aromas. yuck.

:cross:

i was following this thread and didn't read my old post... but I always recommend the mr. malty calculator...also read through the websites how to make a starter walk through. it made one of the biggest improvement with my beer.

 

[mhot55]

I always found cascades to be a bit harsh in flavor- this is fine in a pale ale or IPA, but a lager.....no. And 4 oz.?!? Even 4 oz. of a "noble" hop with low AA would be a bit much for a lager.
Rubber is yeast related i think. Some lager yeasts throw up sulphur (this can be the rubber smell/ taste) during fermentation and usually just needs time to dissipate. As said before, wild yeast can also do this, so usually after fermentation is complete, this should be gone if it was normal sulphur output.
Lastly, PLASTIC (or burnt electrical taste/ smell). The only problem (knock on wood) that I've had. Some also describe this as band-aid. I was lucky. This could be infection (which would lead to some equipment replacing). Otherwise, it is chlorophenols in your water. My water is usually fine for brewing (NYC). But sometimes the presence of chrorophenols is too high (particularly during summer months, i guess more chlorine is used to keep water clean). Now i treat water with campden tablets (1/4 tablet per 5 gallons). Do it every time. I have not had a problem with the dreaded "plastic" taste since.

 

[mpruett]

Aside from going through the Lagering, this jumped out at me. That's too warm to pitch for an Ale let alone a Lager. Next time try to pitch when you get your wort chilled down closer to your target Fermentation temp.

Yeah, that's what stood out to me too.

(by way of comparison, my best lager so far was a 1.050 lager pitched with the yeast that settled out of a 2 gallon starter that was fermented at 50 degrees and pitched at 50 degrees. No off flavors or anything- it's a great lager!)

 

[Kula]

Something interesting I noted is that this beer and a stout I brewed right after it both had detectable amounts of the same acrid bitter funky taste, though at different levels.

The lager much more so than the stout.

One commonality I noticed in the two beers was the use of some pretty old, and pretty stale Cascade hops. They were stored in a freezer, but the bag was not airtight, and they might have been at least a few years old.

Perhaps it's possible that hops can become freezer burnt, or so oxidized that they throw off some nasty harsh bitters, instead of the crisp clean tasty hop bitters we all know and love.

The 'imperial pilsner' got most of these stale hops, the stout got a little, and I haven't used them in any other beers, and I haven't detected this taste in my other beers.

Also, can anybody describe the taste of 'yeast bite?'

That was another theory, but I'm not sure what that tastes like, perhaps a bit like actively fermenting beer with more bitterness? Not really sure, but then again these beers weren't on the cake for all that super long so I doubt that would be much of a factor.

I just fermented out a porter with the same type of yeast as the stout, but it tastes freaking terrific. Thank god.

Edit: Another note on that tasty porter is that it was probably the first beer I pitched up to a proper rate according to the Mr Malty pitching calculator.