Hops Purposes

[bosox]

Is there any real problem with using, say, lager hops for ales? As long as I take into account the AA?

And if a hop is considered an aroma hop does that mean I should add it to the wort late in the boil for a few minutes, or do aroma hops pretty much only give their aroma to the wort no matter how long its boiled?

And flameout, what exactly is the purpose of this? Addint the hops in the final minute would seem to not do much other then maybe give a brief flavor?

 

[fatmoose]

Relatively new to this but as I understand it the aromatic oils from hops that give give beer that wonderful aroma are highly volatile and will be lost during the boiling process. During boiling your are extracting oils that give beer its bitterness and flavor from the hops but little to no fragrance. The point of adding hops at the very end of the boil is that you aren't then allowing the fragrance to boil off. Similarly that's why dry hopping is done for fragrance.

 

[Bmorebrew]

Generally speaking, hops are added early for bittering purposes. Seems most people tend to go for hops with a high concentration of alpha acids (AA% listed on package) to get a bigger bang for the buck, since they are the main compound responsible for bittering. They need to boil for 30 to 90 minutes in order that the alpha acids become isomerized.

Hops used for aroma are only boiled for a brief period since the essential oils responsible are considered volatile - extended periods of high temperatures will cause them to evaporate away during the boil. That is why when used for aroma they are added near the end, or at flameout, or even later in dry hopping.

 

[BigB]

Ok... I have no idea where all of this "info" has come from. First of all, Hops are not divided into "ale" and "lager" hops. Nor do people buy hops with higher AAU's to get "more bang for the buck." Different hops have different flavor profiles( i.e., earthy, grassy, citrusy, etc.) And yes, you add hops at flame out or dry hopping for aroma. Bittering is accomplished through the boil. Some will consider an aroma hop any use 15 minutes left in the boil to dry hopping. But if it is an "Aroma" use for a hop, you would use it NO EARLIER than 15 left in the boil. Read this for more indepth info: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5.html

Edit: Although one wouldn't think an "aroma" use of a hop would add to the beer, but remember the majority of taste is due to aroma.

 

[bosox]

Thanks for all the help! The reason I say lager or ale hops is because in the descriptions of characteristics of hops it will often say "good for American Ales, English Ales, Pilsners" or "Lagers and stouts" or something. So I would imagine you could still interchange the two whenever you wanted, but wanted to make sure I wasn't going to completely throw off the taste of my beer

 

[bosox]

Sorry to be a pain but can I have any clarification at all about First Wort Hopping? Does this mean adding the hops to the plain water before it reaches boiling temperature? I seem to be missing the concept of FWH

 

[BigB]

Ahhh, Ok. The reason there are the references to particular beer styles is because those particular beers have particular flavor profiles that those particular hops are noted for. For example, a German Dunkelweizen would use a German noble hop (such as Hallertau, Tettenang, etc)... But a citrusy Cascade would not be traditional. Not to say it would be necessarily bad, just not traditional. In fact, I have had some incredible beers that are far from traditional. Experiment, Have Fun, Brew your own!

 

[BigB]

Sorry to be a pain but can I have any clarification at all about First Wort Hopping? Does this mean adding the hops to the plain water before it reaches boiling temperature? I seem to be missing the concept of FWH

You are NOT a pain. The purpose of this forum is for questions. We all learn from the discussions. Whether the question is new, old, or what not. So ask away. That being said, don't worry about FWH. I don't know anybody that uses the technique. Honestly, I don't personally see much advantage to it unless you were looking for a VERY SPECIFIC flavor profile. EDIT: Yes, what you said fairly covers first wort hopping except it wouldn't be adding it to plain water. You would add the hops to the sweet wort prior to boil (after mashing).

 

[Beernik]

There are traditional hops for traditional styles. Nothing says you have to follow tradition.

If you read up on different hops, you'll see some that have warnings about using for aroma because they have a very strong flavor or aroma.

Low AA hops can be used for bittering. But if you need a lot of IBUs, you'll have to use a lot of them.

High AA hops can be used for aromatics, although these hops generally have low cohumulone levels.

FWH is an all-grain mashing/lautering thing. If your not doing all grain, don't worry about it.

 

[Julohan]

Read this. http://howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-1.html

 

[fatmoose]

Edit: Although one wouldn't think an "aroma" use of a hop would add to the beer, but remember the majority of taste is due to aroma.

Oh so very important! One of my favorite things about a nice hoppy IPA or DIPA is to just take a nice deep breath of that fragrance before taking that first drink. It's an absolutely essential part of the whole beer experience for me.

 

[davesrose]

Sorry to be a pain but can I have any clarification at all about First Wort Hopping?

FWH is usually done with all grain. You put the hops in your boil kettle as you're sparging hot wort into the boil kettle. It's a way of infusing even more hops into your ales.

Also to add to the discussion about hop types: most lagers use lower AA hops known as "noble" hops mainly because of the country of origin. Northwestern US hops have a high AA, while German hops have a lower AA. Each hop, no matter what the AA has a slightly different taste and aroma. A large part of percieved bitterness is from taste, while aroma can contribute to overall flavor profiles of beer.

 

[bosox]

Thanks for the quick responses BigB! I was planning on using Magnum hops for an American Amber Ale as the main bittering hop, along with 2 of the following between Williamettes/Fuggle/Mt. Hood but I saw that some of the hops I was selecting for my beer were listed as "Lager" hops.

 

[Julohan]

You are NOT a pain. The purpose of this forum is for questions. We all learn from the discussions. Whether the question is new, old, or what not. So ask away. That being said, don't worry about FWH. I don't know anybody that uses the technique. Honestly, I don't personally see much advantage to it unless you were looking for a VERY SPECIFIC flavor profile. EDIT: Yes, what you said fairly covers first wort hopping except it wouldn't be adding it to plain water. You would add the hops to the sweet wort prior to boil (after mashing).

I have read plenty about people doing FWH. It is a practice people are still using.

First wort hopping
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First wort hopping is the practice of adding hops to the first runnings in the brew kettle. Unlike hops added during the boil, hops added to the warm wort appear not to lose their aroma and flavor characteristics when boiled, possibly due to chemical reactions which occur in the warm wort. The result is a beer which many tasters feel has superior hop flavor and aroma and a more pleasant bitterness than traditionally hopped beers.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Ok... I have no idea where all of this "info" has come from. First of all, Hops are not divided into "ale" and "lager" hops. Nor do people buy hops with higher AAU's to get "more bang for the buck." <snip>

Actually the higher AA hops were more "bang for the buck" during the hop shortage. Professional brewers were trying to find the highest alpha acid hops to save money on bittering their beers.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

You are NOT a pain. The purpose of this forum is for questions. We all learn from the discussions. Whether the question is new, old, or what not. So ask away. That being said, don't worry about FWH. I don't know anybody that uses the technique. Honestly, I don't personally see much advantage to it unless you were looking for a VERY SPECIFIC flavor profile. EDIT: Yes, what you said fairly covers first wort hopping except it wouldn't be adding it to plain water. You would add the hops to the sweet wort prior to boil (after mashing).

I FWH all my Pilsners. Then again, you don't know me and you haven't tried my beers.

Just don't poison the well for the beginners, please.

 

[davesrose]

Thanks for the quick responses BigB! I was planning on using Magnum hops for an American Amber Ale as the main bittering hop, along with 2 of the following between Williamettes/Fuggle/Mt. Hood but I saw that some of the hops I was selecting for my beer were listed as "Lager" hops.

Those are all hops that are common with ales as well. I'd vote Mt Hood for your aroma, but any of them will be good.

 

[BigB]

I FWH all my Pilsners. Then again, you don't know me and you haven't tried my beers.

You answered this yourself

Just don't poison the well for the beginners, please.

Read the rest of the thread... the part about unless you are looking for a specific flavor profile. If that is poisoning the beginners then I am guilty. The comment was meant to point out the fact that there is LITTLE advantage to it, especially for a new brewer. Quote from Denny Conn: "pro brewers and BJCP judges showed remarkably little ability to tell a difference between the two." '(referring to a test he and Jamil did with beers that had FWH and control that didn't). EDIT: Let me be crystal clear about this. I categorically refuse to enter into a debate about the advantages/disadvantages of FWH. The thrust of my point is that a new brewer is still learning the differences between different hops, different styles, etc. In addition they are still honing in on their brewing technique. IMO <----- Note: "IN MY OPINION" a new brewer should not bother with FWH until they have nailed their technique and understand what hops, yeast, grains, extract, time, temperature, etc, does in a beer. Otherwise they are shooting blind.

 

[Bmorebrew]

Nor do people buy hops with higher AAU's to get "more bang for the buck."

I wish to defend my statement by offering evidence straight from John Palmer's How To Brew:

If you consider the cost of bittering a beer in terms of the amount of alpha acid per unit weight of hop used, it is more economical to use a half ounce of a high alpha hop rather than 1 or 2 ounces of a low alpha hop. You can save your more expensive (or scarce) aroma hops for flavoring and finishing.

If my initial statement was not clear, I apologize, but this is what I was refering to when discussing strictly the AA concentration. AA% is a pretty straightforward concept in terms of its 'stoichiometry'.

 

[BigB]

I wish to defend my statement by offering evidence straight from John Palmer's How To Brew:

If you consider the cost of bittering a beer in terms of the amount of alpha acid per unit weight of hop used, it is more economical to use a half ounce of a high alpha hop rather than 1 or 2 ounces of a low alpha hop. You can save your more expensive (or scarce) aroma hops for flavoring and finishing.

If my initial statement was not clear, I apologize, but this is what I was refering to when discussing strictly the AA concentration. AA% is a pretty straightforward concept in terms of its 'stoichiometry'.

In strictly the bittering sense, I agree with you completely. You certainly would get more bang for the buck. But, even a bittering hop adds a unique flavor to the beer. And as far as people (directed at Tiber's comment) buying higher AAU hops during the hop shortage to get more bang for the buck, I can't argue that either...but I don't recall that we currently have one. But to that I would defer to our vendor's such as Wholesale Hops. com, AHBS, or any of the others.

 

[Bmorebrew]

My question then is about the bittering hops. I don't yet have the experience with homebrewing to know first hand, but to what extent does the variety matter when selecting for bitterness? It's self-evident that flavor and aroma hops are all uniquely identifiable within the beer, but for any given style is one equally able to distinguish between variety of bittering hops?

 

[steakandale]

Here are two graphs that helped me understand hops the most:
The first one is the just a simple chart but easily explains flavoring/aroma/bitterness additions in a way that is easy to see.
http://www.brewsupplies.com/hop_characteristics.htm

This next one of a large poster type display that groups hops by flavor type (spicy, citrousy, herbal) and names many of the most popular varieties.
It also breaks down how much of the flavor characteristics each hop type contains. Each hop has varying amounts of flavor groupings - spice vs floral vs other flavors. This is how you can see certain varieties as being the most popular for the bitterness or aroma additions as that variety pobably contains the largest proportion of that aspect the recipe maker is looking for.
This is yet another way to select a variety. If your nuts about spicy, or floral or herbal you can select two or three that maximize those you are looking for.
http://zekeshore.com/hops_v1.12.png

While I was looking for these links I found tons of charts that might contain more info (some excellent pages from growers union), but none were graphical like these two are.

I think these things should be a sticky in the recipe forum

 

[BigB]

My question then is about the bittering hops. I don't yet have the experience with homebrewing to know first hand, but to what extent does the variety matter when selecting for bitterness? It's self-evident that flavor and aroma hops are all uniquely identifiable within the beer, but for any given style is one equally able to distinguish between variety of bittering hops?

Some might, it really depends on the person or the beer. Personally, I notice a minute difference, but that is just me (i.e., I like using Glacier for bittering, because I think it is "smoother" and imparts a bit of earthy flavor). Others say no. This question was asked before and here is a response from someone far more experienced than me:

Very, very little. The bittering qualities can vary, though. I use Columbus for bittering a lot. I like it & I got a deal on two pounds of pellets last year.

You might notice differences in styles where there are no flavor or aroma adds.

 

[Bmorebrew]

Wow, those are some great graphs from brewsupplies.com. I especially love the one from zekeshore.com - would make a great poster for the bar area!

 

[malkore]

Nor do people buy hops with higher AAU's to get "more bang for the buck."

Ummm...says who?

I frequently buy yakima magnum hops so I only have to use .25 oz for bittering. and its a clean hop.

So yeah, I buy magnum to get more bang for my buck, less trub in the kettle, etc.

The rest of what you said I agree with because its accurate

 

[Tiber_Brew]

You answered this yourself

I was just pointing out an obvious fallacy. You said:

That being said, don't worry about FWH. I don't know anybody that uses the technique. Honestly, I don't personally see much advantage to it unless you were looking for a VERY SPECIFIC flavor profile.

To which I replied with:

I FWH all my Pilsners. Then again, you don't know me and you haven't tried my beers.

I was pointing out that just because you don't know anyone who uses this method, that doesn't mean jack. We don't know how many brewers you know, and what their credentials are, or what types of beer they brew...and so on...and so on... Just sayin'.

Read the rest of the thread... the part about unless you are looking for a specific flavor profile. If that is poisoning the beginners then I am guilty. The comment was meant to point out the fact that there is LITTLE advantage to it, especially for a new brewer.

You were giving the idea that it isn't worth looking into, or that the difference was essentially negligible. I was simply asking you not to discourage beginners from using the technique. You're right in saying that beginners might not understand the difference, and that they shouldn't be concerned about the difference. I, however, would encourage any brewer to try it, and see if they themselves can discern the difference. That's all.

Let me be crystal clear about this. I categorically refuse to enter into a debate about the advantages/disadvantages of FWH.

Nor shall we.

The thrust of my point is that a new brewer is still learning the differences between different hops, different styles, etc. In addition they are still honing in on their brewing technique. IMO <----- Note: "IN MY OPINION" a new brewer should not bother with FWH until they have nailed their technique and understand what hops, yeast, grains, extract, time, temperature, etc, does in a beer. Otherwise they are shooting blind.

I agree somewhat. But it isn't necessary to become with all kinds of hops, just the usage of whatever hop they're yearning to experiment with. As long as you have a benchmark, or a control, one can see for themselves if the difference is a) noticeable, and b) positive.

We're not entirely in disagreement here. Relax, buddy!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

In strictly the bittering sense, I agree with you completely. You certainly would get more bang for the buck. But, even a bittering hop adds a unique flavor to the beer.

Furthermore, some hops add different bittering texture to beers. The flavor may be a slightly discernible difference, but some texture differences I find are huge between hops' bittering qualities.

And as far as people (directed at Tiber's comment) buying higher AAU hops during the hop shortage to get more bang for the buck, I can't argue that either...but I don't recall that we currently have one. But to that I would defer to our vendor's such as Wholesale Hops. com, AHBS, or any of the others.

Right. No one's saying that we're in a hop shortage still, but to some people, saving a few bucks per batch is a big deal. I started brewing in college, and back then I would buy anything with high alphas for bittering to save a few bucks here and there.

 

[carnevoodoo]

1. TONS of people FWH. Tons.
2. People still bitter with high AA hops all the time, hop shortage or no.

Both of these things matter. Dismissing something that you don't practice is just blind ignorance.

 

[SwampassJ]

Jesus Christ, can you jump down his throat any more Tiber? He even states he hasn't seen any benefit himself, then you call him wrong for his opinion but say that people taste different things at the end of a page long tirade.



p.s. Thread was good until that point.

 

[KevinW]

I like hops