Hoppy Beers Taste Better Before Bottling?!

[TheHopfather]

Hey All,

The last couple of hop forward beers that I've brewed have tasted fantastic coming out of the bottling bucket but lacking once bottle conditioned. I'll use my last citra/mosaic IPA as an example. On bottling day the sample was damn near perfect. Gravity was spot on, sample had a nice bitterness and a TON of citra and mosaic hop flavor and aroma. I was extremely pleased with the sample and thought that this would be the IPA that finally rivaled a commercial example. Beer was bottled as normal and the wait to condition began.

My hop forward beers in the past have suffered from a lack of hop flavor (not bitterness), normally I do the 3 weeks @ 70F before tasting. With this beer I decided to sample at 1 week to see if I could find out when I was losing this taste. Fast forward one week, I crack open my first bottle and all of my delicious citra and mosaic flavors are gone (beer is still bitter). This does not taste remotely like the beer that I put into bottles a week ago (yes, I understand it is young, that is kind of the point) and I'm getting pretty frustrated with the situation.

My question is why do my beers taste better before going into bottles? Is it simply a matter of losing the hop flavor that quickly and I should just toss a ton more hops at my beer expecting to lose a large portion of the taste? Could it be something in my bottling process stripping out the hop flavor? What the heck is going on?!

---Brew Info---
2-Row - 83%
Munich - 7%
Crystal 60 - 6%
Wheat Malt - 4%

FWH w/ Nugget - 25 IBUs
15 min Citra + Mosaic addition - 42 IBUs
20 min whirlpool w/ Citra - 15 IBUs
5 day Citra + Mosaic dry hop

Pacman yeast w/ starter
Oxygenated with pure O2 - 60 sec
Fermented @ 62F

OG - 1.064
FG - 1.014

Water - RO built up to Bru'n Water "Pale Ale" profile

Hop aroma / flavor = gone.

 

[aimlessbum]

I think what you might be seeing is some form of oxidation which can take on a number of different descriptions, but definitely dampening of hop flavor can be seen as a sign of oxidation. If it is oxidation, you're probably picking up oxygen somewhere between your fermenter and the bottle.

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

Have had this problem for years and dry hopping is not the solution. You have two choices IMHO. One is to jam even more hops into a beer or

Do bottle hopping instead of dry hopping.

http://www.thegreatmaibockaddict.com/bottle-hopping.shtml

It works extremely well.

Also add your flavor and aroma hops to the mash. The mash hopping process seems to fuse the hop oils to proteins and prevents degredation, although the sharp notes of aggressive hops will be muted.

http://www.thegreatmaibockaddict.com/mash-hopping.shtml

The greatest benefit though is all those hops that normally would absorb wort or beer are eliminated resulting in more beer to drink!!!

Give it a try. Have done many a batch this way and it works extremely well, and saves the dry hop waiting!

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

I should also mention that as yeast metabolizes sugar, some of the hop oils are absorbed by the yeast creating a less hoppy brew. That is why after the bottle conditioning stage the beer loses some of its hop character.

 

[feinbera]

I'm too lazy to reverse-engineer the math, so, I'll just ask – how many ounces of hops are you using? It wasn't until I started using six, seven, eight ounces per five-gallon batch (~1 oz bittering charge, the rest distributed among late boil, whirlpool, and dry hop) that my IPA's started coming out as hoppy as I wanted.

Also, bear in mind, even in a healthy, error-free brew, there are reasons that bottling day sample might taste hoppier than the final brew. Those aromatic compounds decay quickly, and the sample is three weeks younger than the bottle pour. It's also (possibly, depending if you cold crash) warmer, which brings out the flavors more – why do you think BMC encourages you to drink their beers at two degrees below freezing? And, as thegreatmaibockaddict mentioned, the yeast can take some of the hops flavor and aroma with it to the bottom of the bottle.

I guess I think of it a little bit like I think of my post-boil volume... I make a little extra beer, knowing I'll leave some volume behind in trub, and I hop a little extra, knowing I'll lose some of that during the process, too.

 

[TheHopfather]

I'm too lazy to reverse-engineer the math, so, I'll just ask – how many ounces of hops are you using? It wasn't until I started using six, seven, eight ounces per five-gallon batch (~1 oz bittering charge, the rest distributed among late boil, whirlpool, and dry hop) that my IPA's started coming out as hoppy as I wanted.

This is what I was worried about. The math works out to 1oz bittering charge, 2oz total @ 15min, 1oz whirlpool and 1oz dryhop. This wasn't my recipe so I figured the hops would be enough. I think I'll make the same recipe again but dump a ton of hops at it and see what happens.

 

[MadHomebrewer]

Also, out of the fermentor, what is your bottling process? Maybe it's being exposed to much oxygen along the way?

 

[NothingRhymesWithCurtiss]

I've seen the same thing with the IPAs that I've brewed: Great at bottling. Not so great after conditioning.

 

[Callacave]

This is what I was worried about. The math works out to 1oz bittering charge, 2oz total @ 15min, 1oz whirlpool and 1oz dryhop. This wasn't my recipe so I figured the hops would be enough. I think I'll make the same recipe again but dump a ton of hops at it and see what happens.

I think the problem mainly lies in here. In one of my 2.5 gal batches I whirlpooled 4 oz of hops at 140 for 30 min. Incredible flavor. I think you just need more hops, and at different times. Maybe move the 15 min addition to 5 min, and then whirlpool a ton for 30-60 min.

 

[TheHopfather]

Also, out of the fermentor, what is your bottling process? Maybe it's being exposed to much oxygen along the way?

I've been concerned about oxidation as well. Pretty standard process, I use an auto siphon to rack from the carboy to a bottling "bucket" (really a stainless pot) on top of my sugar solution. Gentle stir (no splashing) then rack into bottles using the same auto siphon + bottle filler. When racking into the bucket I leave the hose below the level of beer and do my best to not splash.

I do not rack to secondary.

 

[peterj]

This is what I was worried about. The math works out to 1oz bittering charge, 2oz total @ 15min, 1oz whirlpool and 1oz dryhop. This wasn't my recipe so I figured the hops would be enough. I think I'll make the same recipe again but dump a ton of hops at it and see what happens.

Yup, you need more hops. I would use 2-4 times as much hops in the whirlpool and dryhop.

 

[AK7007]

+1 to the "add more hops" crowd. 4oz/5gal isn't really that much. I'm commonly around 8oz, typically at 12oz, and have def made a triple with a pound/5gal. (When 90% of your IBU come from whirlpool hopping and the other 10% from FWH, and then dry hopping with 4-6oz, you end up using a lot of hops)

Also, something to try: http://beerandwinejournal.com/hop-aroma-extract/

I really like this method for getting last minute aroma into a beer.

 

[MadHomebrewer]

I drink most of my beers pretty fresh, but the few that i have let stay in bottles for a few months do the same thing. Some time this year i will be moving to kegging my beer, till then I guess pile on the hops.

 

[TheHopfather]

Just an update for anyone who is interested. I brewed this same recipe again but change the hops schedule/amounts as per the advice in this thread. I am now using 2.4oz/gal with a 15-10-5-hopstand and dry hop.

Beer is going into bottles on Friday and the gravity sample tasted amazing with a huge hop nose before the dry hop. I'll update after they have carb'd/conditioned for a bit to see if that did the trick.

I also noticed I had a little yellow colony of something living in the bottom of my auto siphon. I've replaced all my bottling gear and this IPA will be the first thing it touches. I also suspect my priming water solution may have been contributing chlorophenols as I was just boiling tap water. No chlorine has touched this batch and all bottles have gone through a PBW soak.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Bosh]

How long between pitching and bottling? Maybe just bottle earlier?

 

[TheHopfather]

Well folks, I finally did it. With your help this last batch of IPA was a crazy hop bomb. I don't think I've ever tasted a commercial example that had this much hop presence. I appreciate all of the help, I think I can consistently crank out proper IPA's from here on out.

Cheers!

 

[troxerX]

Hopfather, I've been having this issue for years where my beers are awesome at bottling and a couple weeks after they are just not the same. Not only hop flavor/aroma but also the appearance going from this bright orange to an awful dull light brown. I've done unimaginable hop amounts (16 oz per 4 gallon starting batch volume for example) as well as dry hopping the hell out of them and the results are always the same. I've bottled as fast as I can using standard equipment and label the bottles with numbers and no difference at all. Used carb tabs, priming sugar, bottle water, distilled water combinations and --- same result. The only common denominator I can think of is yeast. Yeast cells maybe stressed when we force them to carbonate using only priming sugar?, they are biologically complex and have the capacity to transform a beer in no time. I'm setting up my kegging equipment as I just gave up on bottle carbonation for homebrewed hoppy east coast IPAs. Kegging removes yeast from the equation as well as allows you to cut time during the carbonation process. Just my thoughts as I know what you're going through.

 

[eigua]

Used carb tabs, priming sugar, bottle water, distilled water combinations and --- same result.

Have you tried DME to carb? I haven't myself but I've heard of it being used for that.

 

[hopbrad]

its O2 pickup. kegging will solve it. theres more way to combat O2 problems in a keg vs bottle on the homebrew scale. you can purge the keg before you siphon your beer, do closed transfers, etc.

 

[Callacave]

Hopfather, I've been having this issue for years where my beers are awesome at bottling and a couple weeks after they are just not the same. Not only hop flavor/aroma but also the appearance going from this bright orange to an awful dull light brown. I've done unimaginable hop amounts (16 oz per 4 gallon starting batch volume for example) as well as dry hopping the hell out of them and the results are always the same. I've bottled as fast as I can using standard equipment and label the bottles with numbers and no difference at all. Used carb tabs, priming sugar, bottle water, distilled water combinations and --- same result. The only common denominator I can think of is yeast. Yeast cells maybe stressed when we force them to carbonate using only priming sugar?, they are biologically complex and have the capacity to transform a beer in no time. I'm setting up my kegging equipment as I just gave up on bottle carbonation for homebrewed hoppy east coast IPAs. Kegging removes yeast from the equation as well as allows you to cut time during the carbonation process. Just my thoughts as I know what you're going through.

When a beer turns from pale to dark, and hop flavor stales/fades it's a classic sign of oxidation. Looking at your transferring/bottling process is a must to help reduce this.