Hoppo's Crappy Water Test - Help!

[Hoppopotomus]

As I finish up my electic brewing system, finally got around to sending a water sample into Ward Labs. I just received the results and they are not looking promising. To give you a little insight, I'm on a well and have a light commercial water softening system installed in my house. I did not want to consider softened water for brewing, so I got the bright idea of tapping into my water supply before the filter and installing a dual canister filter. I put a sediment filter in the first canister and a carbon filter in the second. It supplys the pot filler faucet directly above my HLT. See the pics.

I have a hot tub and a swimming pool, so I am well aware that my water is hard and very high in alkalinity. I guess I didn't know how bad until I sent in the sample. My goal is to use my water, as carrying 20 gallons of water down to my basement everytime I brew is not what I had in mind. To this point, I have always used R/O water purchased from Meijer, added gypsum, and experienced really good results. Honestly, I really had no idea how vitally important water chemistry is until I tried using my water for the last 3 A/G batches on my old system. I made a wheat IPA, an American Lager, and a Rye Maibock. The lighter beers were an absolute train wreck! The darker beer is tolerable, but still not great. That's when I started exploring water chemistry by reading this thread and watching water chemistry videos from the likes of Bobby from NJ and John Palmer.

I plan on using -TH-'s excel spread sheet, but I also know that there are some brilliant chemistry guys that patrol the brew science threads. I guess I need to know if my water is useable or if I'm going to have to take drastic measures like boiling my water and adding acids. I really don't want to install an R/O system if I can get away with it, so I'm looking for advice. Here are my results.

pH: 7.5
Total Dissolved Solids: 452 ppm
Electrical Conductivity: .75 mmho/cm
Cations/Anions: 9.2/9.0 me/L

Sodium: 12
Potassium: 3
Calcium: 103
Magnesium: 29
Total Hardness: 378
Nitrate: 0.6
Sulfate: 16
Chloride: 55
Carbonate: <1
Bicarbonate: 387
Total Alkalinity: 317
Total Phosphorus: <0.01
Total Iron: 0.17

Is there any hope?

 

[Glynn]

Scribing. I'm interested in what you find out. I just stared using ro water because my water source is a local river 1/4 mile away and my water is never the same season to season.

 

[TrickyDick]

You should consider an RO setup. If you have patience, you can manage with an inexpensive system. The basic filter setup is about 100-125 but you'll need storage tanks for a cheapie setup like this. Mine is a GE system I believe and generates about 1 gal per hour, which is stored in a pair of bladder tanks holding 4 gal total. I begin collecting a day or two before brew day into plastic 5 gal water jugs. It's a PITA but cheap.

Option 2. Try boiling the water and test the water again post boil. This should drive off dissolved CO2 and precipitate the chalk, Lowering the hardness. Also a PITA but without additional hardware expenditures. Reportedly they do this in Ireland per recent zymurgy issue, at some breweries with hard water. The resultant water is soft and they mash their brew without adding the dark grains until after the main mash is complete.

If youre getting zymurgy, read that article as it explains better than I can.

Good luck.

 

[zrule]

bump...

 

[Roadie]

That's a **** ton of TDS though hard to see where it is based on the report. I recently picked up an RO system with 20g holding tank from airwaterice.com and love it. Something to think about.

 

[Setesh]

I have to agree. An RO system then roll your own water profile from there.

 

[RacingRam]

I'll jump on the RO train. I rent a system with a 3 gal tank from Culligan for $21/month. Seems expensive but they come and service it every year and change all 4 filters for no additional charge. The guy came last week and said I could get a 9 gal tank for a little more, so I don't have to start filling buckets a day before a 10 gal brew. I bet they'd run a line to your brewery and another to your kitchen.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

That's a **** ton of TDS though hard to see where it is based on the report. I recently picked up an RO system with 20g holding tank from airwaterice.com and love it. Something to think about.

If you don't mind me asking, what does a system like that cost?

 

[TrickyDick]

Not sure on cost but the three element filter setup for the RO is about 100-125 dollars. The big 20 gal holding tanks might be 200-300 but totally guessing. My small 3 gal tanks are about $100. They contain a bladder that produce water pressure needed to dispense the water.

I forget who rents from culligan, but you should consider buying the setup outright. The filters last several years under regular use and I'd bet if you brew once a month, they'd last even longer. More money to spend on ingredients!!

Back to the OP. I don't really think you can escape the high Cl levels by anything other than RO or ion exchange softener. Boiling might mitigate the hardness to a degree but you got several problems with your water that boiling won't entirely help.

Is that report from the water before the two filters you are using or after it already filtered??

 

[Hoppopotomus]

When I throw all of my numbers into -TH-'s spread sheet and inputed several different grain bills for different styles of beer, most of my numbers aren't out of line pertaining to calcium, magnesium, sodium, chloride, and sulfate. Nothing that a little minor tweaking with salts can't correct. The major issue is obviously with the mash ph, which is high due to the excessive alkalinity of my water. I guess I am wondering why I couldn't utilize acid malt or lactic acid additions into my mash to control the mash ph and then just tweek the minerals prn with salts. I have taken my share of chemistry, but it was a long, long time ago, so this is a relatively new topic for me. I know that most of you are in the camp of stipping the water with an R/O system and then rebuilding from there. I guess I am wondering why I couldn't take advantage of the existing mineral content of my water, which in most cases isn't horribly out of line and then adjust mash ph. Are the acid malts or lactic acid expensive? Do they impart off flavors in relatively small doses?

If I can take advantage of the mineral rich water that I am working with and then find a reasonable way to control the mash ph, I would prefer to go that route. I have put a lot of hard work and money into my brewery, so I'll do what it takes to produce beer of the highest standards. If that means investing in an R/O system, I will, but I really what to know chemically, if it is feasible to alter my existing water source. Thanks for all of the feedback thus far.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hmm. Well I didn't plug your data into a SS. I'm also not a total water guru. However, if mash pH is the primary concern, then try Pre boiling water the day or night before to precipitate out some of the calcium carbonate and re/test to see what happens. This should improve the bicarbonate and calcium levels by boiling off the dissolved co2 and change the solubility of chalk lowering your hardness and bicarbonate levels. This would only cost you time and effort.
Plus from here, and ph adjustments would be easier to attain by using acid malt and additions of inorganic acids due to lowered bicarbonate levels which would buffer acidulation attempts to a point.

Good luck.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Not sure on cost but the three element filter setup for the RO is about 100-125 dollars. The big 20 gal holding tanks might be 200-300 but totally guessing. My small 3 gal tanks are about $100. They contain a bladder that produce water pressure needed to dispense the water.

I forget who rents from culligan, but you should consider buying the setup outright. The filters last several years under regular use and I'd bet if you brew once a month, they'd last even longer. More money to spend on ingredients!!

Back to the OP. I don't really think you can escape the high Cl levels by anything other than RO or ion exchange softener. Boiling might mitigate the hardness to a degree but you got several problems with your water that boiling won't entirely help.

Is that report from the water before the two filters you are using or after it already filtered??

Sorry, I must have been typing my last response when your response came through. Yes, the water is after the sediment and carbon filter, straight out of the tap for my HLT.

In your opinion, what do you feel are my biggest problems with my water? When I look at Palmers general ranges for CA,MG, NA, CL, and SO4, my numbers don't seem to be ridiculously out of line with his ranges. When I input different grists into -TH-'s spreadsheet, I'm still not seeing where I am horribly out of line.....except for mash Ph.

I am new to water chemistry, so I appreciate any and all feedback. If my water sucks, I'll do whatever I have to do to fix it. I'm just hoping to not have to completely strip my water down and then have to rebuild it is all. Thanks for any and all input.

 

[ajdelange]

You have a bit over 6 mVal alkalinity and about 7-1/2 of hardness. This means the water is a good candidate for softening by lime treatment or boiling. But those processes are a bit uncertain and if you use them you really should run alkalinity and hardness tests on the processes water to see how much decarbonation you achieved and how much calcium you lost. These tests are not difficult to do but most brewers seem unwilling to undertake them for some reason.

Lime softening is preferable to boiling in that you save energy and are not exposed to the hazards of boiling liquids nor do you have to wait for the water to come to a boil. But, done right, lime softening is a little tricky and requires pH monitoring. Strips should be good enough here.

I think most people are advocating RO because it makes the brew day simpler. Systems are, at the low end, reasonably priced and the main disadvantage with them is that you must collect water for a few days before brewing. I have actually forgotten to do that i.e. walked into the brewery with buckets of ground grain and a gurgling starter waiting for me only to realize that I never collected water. Quick trip to all the drugstores in town to buy them out of distilled water solves the problem of course but what a PITA (not to mention feeling like a fool).

Larger systems manufactured for the reef aquarium hobby are also widely used by brewers with good results. These are a little more expensive but have appreciably larger throughput than the under-the-sink systems.

An additional advantage of RO is that it wipes out any seasonal (or other) variation in the quality of the supply. You get an (almost) blank sheet of paper for each brew. It is important, with water as hard as yours, that an RO unit be fed with softened water. I would assume, given the specs, that you have a softener installed.

More and more brewers, craft and home, are moving to RO. It is an extremely attractive solution to the water 'problem'. It is definitely what I would do in your circumstances. In fact I do it with water that is a great deal less hard and alkaline than yours (I want the sulfate out). The downside to it is that doing lime softening will, by the time you get it right, have taught you quite a bit about brewing water. Just opening the RO spigot when you want brew water won't.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Thanks A.J.! Can you point me to a resource that explains how to proceed with lime softening? I'm really torn as to what to do at this point. Obviously, if I could learn how to effectively and consistently do lime softening on my mineral rich water, if would probably be the easiest. However, your final comments "lime sofetening, by the time you get it right, will have taught you quite a bit about brewing water", leads me to believe that it's like not an exact science and there is going to be a lot of trial and error within the process. Is this correct?

I was playing around more with -TH-'s spreadsheet and it appears as though several other things could be done as well such as dillution or the addition of acid malts or lactic acid in the mash. All 3 in different combinations seem to get me there. I believe that his sheet states that it is not recommend to exceed 3% of your grist with acid malt. I know that adding too much lactic acid can lead to sour off flavors in beer. Is there a down side to acid malts or lactic acid in conjunction with dillution when compared to lime softening? Forgive me if these are stupid questions, but I'm trying to figure out how labor intensive this is going to be if I elect to roll with my water.

You also mentioned that you went with R/O because you wanted the sulfate out? Are my numbers completely out of line? I have already looked into several different R/O systems and was able to find some higher output sytems with larger storage tanks for still somewhat reasonable pricing. I found one that is a six stage, 100 GPD, system that strips everything out and then re-mineralizes the water....not sure how that works, but may be an option. This may be more of a plumbing question, but most of the units I am finding feed the standard single faucet typically seen mounted on sinks for under cabinet units. I believe that these faucets are supplied by pex type tubing. I'm wondering if there is a way to hard plumb and R/O system to feed the already existing pot filling faucet in my brewery????????

The R/O sytem that I mentioned recommends a dual canister pre-filter as well, so at least I didn't throw my money away with what I already have, if I go the R/O route. If I could re-route some copper from the post-softener side of my sytem, then through the dual canister filters, then into the R/O system, then out to my pot filling faucet, that would be the best of all worlds. I could even tap into the R/0 water and install a faucet on my kitchen sink right above the brewery. Any thoughts?

I truly appreciate your feedback and expertise A.J. and am welcoming any and all feedback at this point. I'm in the end stages of my brewery build and this is the final component to tackle. There's no point in having a nice brewery if it produces crap beer!

 

[Roadie]

If you don't mind me asking, what does a system like that cost?

I got the 50 gpd RO with a pump (ED 50) to feed an upstairs icemaker and door water dispenser on our new fridge (RO in basement) and a 20 gallon holding tank along with all fittings for installation and water line for $315. Well worth it in my opinion. As someone else mentioned we start from a blank slate and create the water profile we want.

The reason I suggested you consider RO is because you have a lot of "something" in your water according to your TDS and it's not showing in the numbers that we as brewers try to control but is there none-the-less. Could be anything and that is what I don't like and IMHO a big reason to go RO.

If you flush the RO membrane periodically it will last a long time and the sediment/carbon filters are cheap. I kept an SPS reef tank for years so have some experience with these units.

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks A.J.! Can you point me to a resource that explains how to proceed with lime softening?

You can find Hubert Hanghoffer's method here: http://www.franklinbrew.org/wp/?page_id=399

It is important that you add any calcium supplement you intend to make before adding the lime as this will aid in reducing bicarb. Also be sure to add some chalk to serve as nucleation sites.

I'm really torn as to what to do at this point. Obviously, if I could learn how to effectively and consistently do lime softening on my mineral rich water, if would probably be the easiest. However, your final comments "lime sofetening, by the time you get it right, will have taught you quite a bit about brewing water", leads me to believe that it's like not an exact science and there is going to be a lot of trial and error within the process. Is this correct?

Yes. Use of the pH meter or strips helps a lot but you really need to check alkalinity and hardness after you use this process to see how effective it was.

I was playing around more with -TH-'s spreadsheet and it appears as though several other things could be done as well such as dillution or the addition of acid malts or lactic acid in the mash. All 3 in different combinations seem to get me there.

Yes, that's so. Alkalinity can be diluted away or neutralized. With neutralization you replace the bicarbonate with the anion of the acid you used. With dilution you don't. This may or may not be a factor for you.

I believe that his sheet states that it is not recommend to exceed 3% of your grist with acid malt. I know that adding too much lactic acid can lead to sour off flavors in beer. Is there a down side to acid malts or lactic acid in conjunction with dillution when compared to lime softening? Forgive me if these are stupid questions, but I'm trying to figure out how labor intensive this is going to be if I elect to roll with my water.

No, they are not stupid questions. Unfortunately the answers are 'It depends...'. You can use more than 3% sauermalz but where the flavor of it starts to be noticeable and whether that flavor is considered a + or - depends on the beer and your personal taste. When acid neutralization is used the bicarbonate ions are replaced by anions of the acid. Again, this may be a good or bad thing depending on the acid, how many ions are already present in the water, the style being brewed and personal taste. With dilution new anions don't have to be considered but the possibility that you have diluted cations down too far does.

You also mentioned that you went with R/O because you wanted the sulfate out? Are my numbers completely out of line?

Sorry, but it depends. I personally don't like sulfate and brew beers that don't want it. Others love sulfate and use tons of it in beers that showcase it.

I have already looked into several different R/O systems and was able to find some higher output sytems with larger storage tanks for still somewhat reasonable pricing. I found one that is a six stage, 100 GPD, system that strips everything out and then re-mineralizes the water....not sure how that works, but may be an option.

That is an option that many craft and home brewers are using. The RO system is considered to have stripped out everything (though this is not actually the case). The brewer then replaces the ions he wants present by adding back in some gypsum and calcium chloride.

This may be more of a plumbing question, but most of the units I am finding feed the standard single faucet typically seen mounted on sinks for under cabinet units. I believe that these faucets are supplied by pex type tubing. I'm wondering if there is a way to hard plumb and R/O system to feed the already existing pot filling faucet in my brewery????????

The R/O sytem that I mentioned recommends a dual canister pre-filter as well, so at least I didn't throw my money away with what I already have, if I go the R/O route. If I could re-route some copper from the post-softener side of my sytem, then through the dual canister filters, then into the R/O system, then out to my pot filling faucet, that would be the best of all worlds. I could even tap into the R/0 water and install a faucet on my kitchen sink right above the brewery. Any thoughts?

RO water is very corrosive and if piped in a permanent installation should be run through PEX or other non metalic tubing.

There's no point in having a nice brewery if it produces crap beer!

Judging from the pics your brewery is very nice and entirely too neat!

 

[mabrungard]

That isn't that bad a water source. Sure, its hard and alkaline. But the primary concern I have with it is the somewhat high Mg content. As AJ indicates, this water is full of temporary hardness and will easily drop its 'load' with either boiling or lime softening. They will work, but might be a PITA.

That water can be used as is for some brewing. The alkalinity will require acidification and I suggest that phosphoric acid would be a preferred option for that use. The flavor ions in that water are not very high (except Mg!) and you should be able to brew successfully with that acidified water.

If RO is your chosen path, get its feed water from the softener. That will help preserve the RO system.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

If I were to pre-boil my mash/sparge water in my BK for say 30 minutes the day before I brew, let the chalk settle out, then decant that water to the HLT, how much of a drop in hardness and alkalinity could I expect? Would it be recommended that I try it and send another sample into Ward Labs or just go for it and see where the mash PH settles in and and adjust with acids from there? I may try to play around with this water a bit, but every time I try something like lime softening or boiling, I would hate to have to send the water in for formal anaysis to see where my hardness and alkalinity end up.

A couple of responders have brought up the Total Dissolved Solids number being excessively high....450+. In my first post, I provided all of the information sent to me on the report from Ward Labs. Based on that report, are we able to determine exactly why that number is high, or is there any educated guesses as to what is driving it up? I guess I just don't know exactly what constitute a dissolved solid.

Obviously most of the responders feel that R/O is the way to go. A.J. has given me a lot of good information how to work with the water, but admits that he would likely go R/O in my situation. I kind of would like to experiment a little, but still feel like I may be in over my head trying to salvage my water. Martin, you mention that my water is not that bad. If you had my water profile to work with at you home, would you make the effort to work with the water or go with R/O and start with a blank canvas?

After I spent the $1500 on my control panel a few months ago, I told my wife that that was the last major purchase for the brewery. When I brought up the idea of installing and R/O sytem last night, I got the response that I was expecting. I explained how we could add a pump and supply both our refrigerators and ice makers with R/O water and how we would never have to purchase the expensive fridge filters at $50 to $75 a pop again. I told her it would eliminate the need to buy bottled water or for me to have to continue purchasing brewing water from the store. I basically tried to show her how this would pay for itself, but she wasn't biting. I'm sure if I pushed the issue she would agree to it over time, but for now, I may just make do with what I have.

 

[ajdelange]

If I were to pre-boil my mash/sparge water in my BK for say 30 minutes the day before I brew, let the chalk settle out, then decant that water to the HLT, how much of a drop in hardness and alkalinity could I expect?

The rule of thumb is that whichever is the smallest of the alkalinity and the hardness will be reduced to about 1 mVal (1 mEq/L or 50 ppm as CaCO3) and the larger will be reduced by the same amount as the smaller. As you have 7.5 mVal hardness and 6 of alkalinity the rule of thumb says that the alkalinity is limiting and it should drop to 1 (reduce by 5) thus simultaneously reducing the hardness by 5 to 2.5.

Would it be recommended that I try it and send another sample into Ward Labs or just go for it and see where the mash PH settles in and and adjust with acids from there?

What I really recommend is that you obtain alkalinity and hardness test kits (Hach, LaMotte or the ones sold by aquarium suppliers and test before and after. It may turn out that the rule of thumb is an accurate predictor for you but it may not.

I may try to play around with this water a bit, but every time I try something like lime softening or boiling, I would hate to have to send the water in for formal anaysis to see where my hardness and alkalinity end up.

Just more reason to get test kits. Alkalinity is easy enough to do with stuff you scrabble together if you wish to do that instead of buying a kit. See http://www.wetnewf.org/pdfs/measuring-alkalinity.html

A couple of responders have brought up the Total Dissolved Solids number being excessively high....450+. In my first post, I provided all of the information sent to me on the report from Ward Labs. Based on that report, are we able to determine exactly why that number is high, or is there any educated guesses as to what is driving it up? I guess I just don't know exactly what constitute a dissolved solid.

Any thing dissolved counts in TDS. You have 6 mVal of alkalinity most of which is bicarbonate. At 61 mg/mVal your bicarbonate will be, thus, about 360 plus 103 mg/L for calcium so those two, which are the major ions, add up to 463 - more that the 450 total so there must be a catch and that is that the TDS number they are giving you isn't really the TDS it is the TDS of a solution of NaCl (most probably) that has the same electrical conductivity as your water. TDS really doesn't tell you much because of this.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

I really appreciate your help A.J. in gaining at least some baseline knowledge of water chemistry. Although it's still a bit overwhelming, I'm starting to get it. It's people like you here on HBT that make this forum such a valuable place to learn.

Since my wife wasn't terribly enthusiastic about investing in a high output R/O system with a pump right now, I will initially try to use my water, so your information pertaining to boiling will be very helpful. I read though some of the lime softening information and out of the gates it just seems like boiling would be simpler. Would you agree?

 

[ajdelange]

I read though some of the lime softening information and out of the gates it just seems like boiling would be simpler. Would you agree?

Definitely. You might want to get a copy of the new Palmer/Kaminsky book 'Water' (you can get it from Amazon).

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Yeah, I see it was released. I'll pick up a copy soon. I also found the test strips on amazon as well. Thanks for everything. I'm sure I'll have more questions, but this is a good start.

 

[satph]

The water you had tested was from after the dual filer? If so, I guess we can conclude that they don't really do much.

Something to keep in mind is that your well water probably changes over time. I'm on a well, and the two reports I have are very different (see this thread if you want the details). I think the amount of recent rain can have a significant impact on your water. I came to the conclusion that I can't know where I'm starting from with my water. So I'm buying Poland Spring until I get a RO system.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Yeah, the report was after the 2 canister filter system, which offers nothing for hardness or total alkalinity reduction as expected. Good points on the ground water changing over time. This is exactly why I have elected to go with an R/O system.

I have been looking at some light commerical units that are capable of producing 150 to 200 gpd and have 14 gallon storage tanks. I know, that it is probably overkill, but I really don't want to have to collect water for several days, just to brew a batch of beer. These units also have pumps and you can install a manifold to supply multiple faucets. I plan on feeding a faucet in my brewery, two fridges with ice/water dispensers, and a faucet in my kitchen. I could probably accomplish this with a residential unit and a larger storage tank, but I want something with a fairly fast production rate, so I can drain the storage tank into my HLT in the early morning of a brew day and then top it off a little later, while at the same time being able to adequately supply my other faucets in the house.

Since R/O water is acidic, I have also seen several units that re-introduce some alkalinity back into the water as the last step to the filtration process. Does anyone know about the effectiveness of these types of units?

 

[ajdelange]

These units also have pumps and you can install a manifold to supply multiple faucets. I plan on feeding a faucet in my brewery, two fridges with ice/water dispensers, and a faucet in my kitchen. I could probably accomplish this with a residential unit and a larger storage tank, but I want something with a fairly fast production rate, so I can drain the storage tank into my HLT in the early morning of a brew day and then top it off a little later, while at the same time being able to adequately supply my other faucets in the house.

The higher throughput units do have pumps but they are there to raise the pressure across the membrane for higher throughput i.e. they are not for the distribution side of the system. This is not to say that such a system might not have a distribution pump too. It is more usual to run the output of the membranes into a bladder tank and use the pressure from that tank to push the water through the distribution system.

Since R/O water is acidic, I have also seen several units that re-introduce some alkalinity back into the water as the last step to the filtration process. Does anyone know about the effectiveness of these types of units?

I have not seen those so obviously I have no relevant experience. I'll just point out that RO water can be, but is not necessarily, acidic. If you are taking water from a well in a mesic region then the water will contain more dissolved CO2 than surface water or well water from a xeric region. Some of this will pass through the membrane and if the water is passed directly to a pressure tank that water will contain carbonic acid and be corrosive. If, OTOH, the water goes to an atmospheric tank and is then pumped into a pressure tank, as it is in many systems, the CO2 (and pH) will be commensurate equilibrium with atmospheric CO2. The water is still corrosive though as pure water is quite corrosive. Plastic plumbing will be necessary.

It isn't sufficient to back dose alkalinity into RO water to make it non corrosive. Hardness must be added too. I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with doing this unless it becomes self defeating. In brewing you will nearly always want to add some hardness but for most beers we need negative alkalinity (i.e. acid). As most plumbing in new houses seems to be done with PEX anyway I guess I don't see the need for the additional salt dosing equipment.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Thanks for the feedback AJ, I appreciate your knowledge on this topic. Here is the unit that I have been looking at. This particular one does not re-introduce hardness and alkalinity back into the water like some of the others I mentioned such as THIS one.

I spoke with the folks at Titan Water Pros today and the technician explained that distribution pumps are routinely used on light commercial units to increase outflow pressures, especially when feeding multiple faucets via a manifold or long runs. These units have such a high output (150 to 500+ gpd) that they do not require a permeate pump which can be found in other units to push the water across the membrane for faster production. He did however explained that all gpd testing is done with 77 degree water, which isn't realistic, so I would have to calculate the gpd for any unit at 2% less efficient per degree of temperature drop in my well water. For instance, if my well water is 57 degrees, then I could expect a 40% reduction in efficiency based on the manufacturers rating. So, a 300 gpd system with 57 degree water running though it would produce more like 180 gpd or 7.5 gallons per hour.

My house is plumbed in all copper, but I plan on running all PEX to my brewery faucet, both fridges, and another faucet at the kitchen sink. I plan on spending a few hundred bucks on the system, so the light commerical higher output systems are more attractive, especially if I can upgrade to a large storage tank. I am just exploring how to proceed and there are so many choices out there that with my lack of knowledge it's making it difficult.

 

[ajdelange]

I spoke with the folks at Titan Water Pros today and the technician explained that distribution pumps are routinely used on light commercial units to increase outflow pressures, especially when feeding multiple faucets via a manifold or long runs. These units have such a high output (150 to 500+ gpd) that they do not require a permeate pump which can be found in other units to push the water across the membrane for faster production.

Something doesn't compute here. These units do require a pump to get those high through puts but they are not permeate pumps. They go on the feed side. If the feed side is at high pressure (typically ~150 psi) then the unit is capable of filling a bladder tank to pressure, theoretically, as high as the feed side pump pressure minus the osmotic pressure. Thus a unit with a 150 psig pump could easily fill a bladder tank to 30 - 40 psig and that is plenty to distribute the permeate. Now many of these higher capacity units feed an atmospheric tank and a pressure tank is fed from the atmospheric tank via a permeate pressure pump. Again we emphasize that this is not to increase throughput - that is the job of the feed pump - but to pressurize the bladder tank. The use of an atmospheric tank leads to increased throughput as the permeate side of the membranes never see any pressure higher than atmospheric. Obviously the atmospheric tank represents an additional reservoir of RO water. The pressure tank can be eliminated if the permeate pump is of sufficient capacity and has characteristics that allow it to feed the faucet(s).

My system is based on a Titan 500 gpd skid. I typically run it with the feed side pressure at 130 -150 psig which gives a flow of about 1 liter per minute at 33% recovery. The output goes to an atmospheric tank equipped with floats. Water from the atmospheric tank is pumped to the pressure tank whenever the pressure in the pressure tank drops below 30 psig.The pump is the silver cylinder against the wall between the atmospheric and pressure tanks in the photo: http://www.pbase.com/agamid/image/124857348. That pump is designed for boats, campers, cabins etc. It has an integral pressure switch which turns the pump off whenever pressure rises above 40 - 50 psig so it can be connected directly to a faucet or manifold feeding multiple faucets. If you open a faucet, the pressure drops, the switch closes and the pump comes on and stays on until you close all the faucets at which point the line pressure rises and the pump shuts off again. In my system the switch is disabled. The pump is turned on and off by the pressure switches on the wall above it which respond to bladder tank pressure. It keeps the bladder tank pressurized to between 25 and 40 psig with the advantage being that I have 50 some gallons under pressure and can draw it much faster than the pump can supply. Obviously the long term average of the demand can't be grater than the pump can deliver but one doesn't take water that way. He opens the valve to the HLT and fills the HLT then turns it off and then an hour later opens it again to top off the HLT etc. Other than the HLT and a hose in the brewery the other loads are minor - an 18 megohm water system and a faucet in the lab.

This is hardly an optimum design - I'm no expert on designing RO systems but it is very workable and, AFAIK, quite typical. That's why I am puzzled by what your man is telling you. As a distribution pump is a permeate pump the statements are in conflict. Be sure you understand what he is telling you (and be sure he understands it - I've had some amazing experiences with people trying to sell things they don't understand at all).

He did however explained that all gpd testing is done with 77 degree water, which isn't realistic, so I would have to calculate the gpd for any unit at 2% less efficient per degree of temperature drop in my well water. For instance, if my well water is 57 degrees, then I could expect a 40% reduction in efficiency based on the manufacturers rating. So, a 300 gpd system with 57 degree water running though it would produce more like 180 gpd or 7.5 gallons per hour.

Cold water is more 'syrupy' than warm so there is a reduction in flow as the water gets colder. This can be made up for by increasing the feed pump pressure. I'm currently running 1 LPM ~ 372 gpd which represents a 26% reduction RE the rated 500 GPD of my system. Not unlike what your numbers show.

The key to success is, IMO, in being able to flip a switch the night before brew day and have enough RO in the pressure and/or atmospheric tanks for the whole days usage the next morning. This is a matter of sizing those components properly. I oversized the atmospheric tank. If you look at the picture you will notice the non-contact level switch which is set to shut off the RO skid when the atmospheric tank is 1/4 full. It can also be moved up to the 1/2 full position or the skid can be controlled by float switches in the tank. For brewing I move the non contact switch up to the half position. I never fill the atmospheric tank. It would be nice to have the space corresponding to half the size of that tank on the bench.

I plan on spending a few hundred bucks on the system, so the light commerical higher output systems are more attractive, especially if I can upgrade to a large storage tank. I am just exploring how to proceed and there are so many choices out there that with my lack of knowledge it's making it difficult.

Clearly I agree. I will caution that I wound up spending more on the other stuff than the skid but I was having so much fun with the project that I kept putting on bells and whistles.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Thanks AJ for the awesome responses! You are probably the most thorough member I have ever seen on HBT. It's because of people like you who are willing to share the knowledge that makes this such a valuable forum to many of us.

What you are explaining is starting to make more and more sense to me, despite some of the terminology being a bit over my head. The fella that I spoke with yesterday at Titan very well may have been an ill informed sales person....not a technician. There was also a bit of a language barrier, so I may not have been picking up everything that he was laying down. However, I have to agree with you that it's probably more plausible that he may not have been as knowledgeable as he appeared. What you are explaining with the pump in the system that I linked into my last post being utilized on the feed side to push water through the system at a higher rate make sense despite of the fact that he called it a distribution pump. He did specifically say that distribution pumps must be used for long faucet runs or to feed a manifold for multiple faucets, which could be added to any of their systems for $89.

I took a few minutes to look at you R/O system, which is quite impressive. However, it is waaaaaaay more advanced that what I am looking for. I belive I attached a pic of my brewery earlier in the thread, so as you can see, I do not need the capacity that your system can produce....not by a long shot. My vessels are 15.5 gallon ss kegs and I plan on doing 10 gallon batches, so a brew day for me will be around twice that volume.

I guess what I really need to know is if I purchase a light commercial system that is capable of producting 300 or 400 gpd (like the one I linked prior) and upgrade to a 20 gallon tank, can I accomplish my goals? I have no problem drawing off of the system and then having to wait an hour or so to draw off the rest of the volume required for my brewery. Hell, I wouldn't care if I had to draw 1/2 off the night before and the other 1/2 the morning of my brew day. Remember, I want to feed a faucet in the brewery that I will install at my sink and simply run a little silicone tubing from the faucet over to my keggles for filling I have no plans on using the faucet pictured that is hard plumbed with copper over my HLT. I also want to feed 2 refrigerators and possibly have another R/O faucet installed at my kitchen sink as well. All of these additions will be plumbed with PEX. I will need to incorporate a 4 way manifold on the output side of the system and do not see any point in which more than one faucet would be used at a time.

So, with the system that I linked, which has a booster pump to speed up production and with a 20 gallon tank, would I require and additional distribution pump or an atmospheric tank? You appear to have way more automation to your water system than I need. Any additional feedback would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Any thoughts on my last post? I plan on ordering a system just after the holiday, so I need as much input as possible. Thanks!

 

[mchrispen]

Hoppo, amazing brewery you have built! You should be very proud.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004LNUNKE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

That is the system that I use, and I am very happy with it. As mentioned earlier, if you feed it softened water, the life of the membranes is dramatically improved. My feed into it is well over 750 TDS, and the output bounces between 50 and 70 PPM, good enough for my needs, and runs fast enough to generate my 15-16 gallons of brewing water in under 30 minutes on brewday. This is also targeted to use above 40 PSI feed, so you may wish to check that, or use a pump in between. Do also consider the replacement costs of the membranes, good ones are not cheap, particularly with the larger systems. I expect to need to replace mine every year (way too much bicarb).

To your previous question, and given the investment in your brewhouse, it seems a sound plan. I did not have the space in my brewhouse for an atmospheric tank, but considering making room and repurposing a PET malt barrel. I just don't need that much brewery water right now.

 

[ajdelange]

I took a few minutes to look at you R/O system, which is quite impressive. However, it is waaaaaaay more advanced that what I am looking for.

Keep in mind that I am an engineer who loves to tinker and didn't really have to put in things like the timer which delays the pressure pump turn on for 6 minutes after the atmospheric tank level switch trips back on after the skid has replenished low water in the tank. Nor is triple redundancy in bladder tank over pressure protection required.

I guess what I really need to know is if I purchase a light commercial system that is capable of producting 300 or 400 gpd (like the one I linked prior) and upgrade to a 20 gallon tank, can I accomplish my goals?

Absolutely. The biggest problem you face is a surfeit of options. You can go with an atmospheric tank alone which, if you position it above the HLT can fill that by gravity or you can use a boats pressure pump and have it feed the faucets and ice maker too. Or you can have a bladder tank only and let its pressure drive the 'loads'. Or you can have both.

I have no problem drawing off of the system and then having to wait an hour or so to draw off the rest of the volume required for my brewery. Hell, I wouldn't care if I had to draw 1/2 off the night before and the other 1/2 the morning of my brew day.

If you are willing to start collecting early you don't need 400 GPD. A much smaller system will serve.

So, with the system that I linked, which has a booster pump to speed up production and with a 20 gallon tank, would I require and additional distribution pump or an atmospheric tank?

No but keep in mind that the pressure across the membrane is (approximately) the feed pump pressure minus the bladder tank pressure. Thus if you set things up so that the RO sytem runs until bladder tank pressure hits 30 psig then the pressure driving the system is effectively reduced by 30 psig. This will slow flow somewhat.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Great responses and feedback......lots to chew on from my end. Thanks guys, I'll try to make a decision soon. I'm contemplating my inaugural brew day on my new system for later today. Obviously, with my water profile and lack of a R/O system currently, I'll be lugging water home from the store. I am not 100% confident that I am ready for this, as I have only experimented with my control panel and the BCS program processes individually for each step of the brew day. I have yet to run through the entire brewing program with each process consecutively. I did circulate PBW and hot water through the entire system and give a good rinse, so my system is ready. I'm just not 100% confident that I am ready.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

OK guys, a little more help here. I am feverishly searching for the ideal R/O sytem, but likely won't get it until after the holiday. I would like to brew for the first time on my new system tomorrow or Saturday. I was able to find the 5 Gallon Primo water bottles for a reasonable price at a Kmart across the street from my clinic. I see that Meijer used to use culligan for their R/O dispenser, but now use a Primo system as well. I went ahead and purchased 3 of the 5 gallon jugs filled, because I am going to need some collection containers once I have the R/O system anyways. Here's the question:

I currently have 15 gallons of Primo R/O water in the back of my Jeep. If you guys had my water profile:

pH: 7.5
Total Dissolved Solids: 452 ppm
Electrical Conductivity: .75 mmho/cm
Cations/Anions: 9.2/9.0 me/L

Sodium: 12
Potassium: 3
Calcium: 103
Magnesium: 29
Total Hardness: 378
Nitrate: 0.6
Sulfate: 16
Chloride: 55
Carbonate: <1
Bicarbonate: 387
Total Alkalinity: 317
Total Phosphorus: <0.01
Total Iron: 0.17

Would you go ALL R/O and build the water profile from scratch? OR Would you go with a dilution process to at least take advantage of some of the mineral content of the water. I have been playing around with -TH-'s water calculator and tried several different options. Using my water (hard and very high in total alkalinity) and diluting it does leave my mash a little less acidic as I would like (pH 5.5 to 5.6), so I'm a little stumped as to what to do. It would be much easier if I had a pH meter and could make mash adjustments on the fly, but I don't have one yet (it's on the x-mas list). I realize that there are a lot of variables and these calculators are only estimations, so any feedback on what everyone would do would be fantastic. Thanks for your responses.....I truly appreciate it.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

OK guys, a little more help here. I am feverishly searching for the ideal R/O sytem, but likely won't get it until after the holiday. I would like to brew for the first time on my new system tomorrow or Saturday. I was able to find the 5 Gallon Primo water bottles for a reasonable price at a Kmart across the street from my clinic. I see that Meijer used to use culligan for their R/O dispenser, but now use a Primo system as well. I went ahead and purchased 3 of the 5 gallon jugs filled, because I am going to need some collection containers once I have the R/O system anyways. Here's the question:

I currently have 15 gallons of Primo R/O water in the back of my Jeep. If you guys had my water profile:

pH: 7.5
Total Dissolved Solids: 452 ppm
Electrical Conductivity: .75 mmho/cm
Cations/Anions: 9.2/9.0 me/L

Sodium: 12
Potassium: 3
Calcium: 103
Magnesium: 29
Total Hardness: 378
Nitrate: 0.6
Sulfate: 16
Chloride: 55
Carbonate: <1
Bicarbonate: 387
Total Alkalinity: 317
Total Phosphorus: <0.01
Total Iron: 0.17

Would you go ALL R/O and build the water profile from scratch? OR Would you go with a dilution process to at least take advantage of some of the mineral content of the water. I have been playing around with -TH-'s water calculator and tried several different options. Using my water (hard and very high in total alkalinity) and diluting it does leave my mash a little less acidic as I would like (pH 5.5 to 5.6), so I'm a little stumped as to what to do. It would be much easier if I had a pH meter and could make mash adjustments on the fly, but I don't have one yet (it's on the x-mas list). I realize that there are a lot of variables and these calculators are only estimations, so any feedback on what everyone would do would be fantastic. Thanks for your responses.....I truly appreciate it.

PS....my first batch is going to be a 12.5 SRM amber ale (16lbs 2-Row, 2 lbs, Victory (28L), 2 lbs Munich (10L), and 1.5 lbs Crystal (80L).