Hop stand

[jbaysurfer]

From what I've been reading on the subject, take both the dry-hopping and aroma additions and use those hops instead. Also, hopstands seem to work really well when you perform them for 80-90 minutes - again, from what I've read. I would not let the wort cool below 170. Fire the burner occasionally to keep it in the ~180 vicinity.

I'm a little late to this show, but I wouldn't let my wort sit at DMS creation temps for that long. I do a hopstand/whirlpool for my hoppy beers and I cool the wort to 150f as quickly as possible then stop chilling while I let my hops stand/whirlpool (I use a pump to create a whirlpool). I usually let it stand for 20-30 minutes, but it's possible a longer stand might get me better results. As is, this is a great way to add hop aroma to hoppy beers, but nothing beats dry hopping IMHO. I would not cut back on the dryhop for the purposes of hopstanding, I'd just add all my aroma additions at flameout and let those hops be the hopstand.

YMMV.

 

[Rake_Rocko]

I wouldn't let my wort sit at DMS creation temps for that long. I do a hopstand/whirlpool for my hoppy beers and I cool the wort to 150f as quickly as possible then stop chilling while I let my hops stand/whirlpool (I use a pump to create a whirlpool). I usually let it stand for 20-30 minutes, but it's possible a longer stand might get me better results.

This exactly! Don't quote me on this, but I think I remember seeing that DMS forms in the 160-180 range. That is why whenever I do a hopstand I use my CFC to chill my wort to 140 as quickly as possible, then do the hopstand. Longest ive done it is 30 minutes. But I think it's worth trying longer next time. Just to see if there's better results.

Although I get amazing results with just the 30.

 

[AnOldUR]

From what I've read, you're right. DMS is formed at temperatures above 160, but below boiling. The thing is that the amount of DMS formed during an extended whirlpool in the 160 to 170 range is not that great and the CO2 scrubbing action during the first few days of fermentation should be enough to eliminate any that does form.

 

[LovesIPA]

Interesting. I steep for 90 minutes between 160 and 180 and while I'd like to improve the hop flavor and aroma, I haven't noticed any cooked vegetable notes from any of my beers.

 

[trent]

All this DMS talk after a 60-90 boil is BS. Every batch I do is a minimum 30 minute whirlpool at 180-200. Pretty much all large breweries do at least a 20 min whirlpool at temps higher than 160.

 

[wobdee]

I was also thinking DMS shouldn't be a problem with well modified malt and a 60+ minute boil. I do a lot of hop stands with my lid on above 160 and have yet to taste any off flavors.

 

[ZeMadMonkey]

I am of the same opinion as wobdee, that if you have a nice rolling boil and you boil 60+ min you should have no problem with DMS.

The two beers that I did a hopstand with, an IPA and a DIPA, had no DMS issues. With the IPA I did a 60 min boil and for the DIPA I did a 90 min boil. The lid was off the entire boil. When it was time for flameout, I killed my heat, added my hops, and gently stirred my wort for roughly 5 min. I waited for most of the steam off the wort to die down, then I put my lid mostly on but cracked a bit at the edge to release any steam coming off the wort.

I didn't chill my wort on those two beers, though I am going to try the whole 170-180 temp range next time. I just cut the heat, added my hops, gently stirred, put the lid mostly on, and did a 30 min hopstand.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I am of the same opinion as wobdee, that if you have a nice rolling boil and you boil 60+ min you should have no problem with DMS.

The two beers that I did a hopstand with, an IPA and a DIPA, had no DMS issues. With the IPA I did a 60 min boil and for the DIPA I did a 90 min boil. The lid was off the entire boil. When it was time for flameout, I killed my heat, added my hops, and gently stirred my wort for roughly 5 min. I waited for most of the steam off the wort to die down, then I put my lid mostly on but cracked a bit at the edge to release any steam coming off the wort.

I didn't chill my wort on those two beers, though I am going to try the whole 170-180 temp range next time. I just cut the heat, added my hops, gently stirred, put the lid mostly on, and did a 30 min hopstand.

Just to contribute for prosperity's sake, I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding about how and when DMS formation takes place. It takes place whenever the wort is heated above 176(ish)F. DMSO is another animal, and related, but less of a concern, and it forms above 140F.

From Palmer:

DMS is produced in the wort during the boil by the reduction of another compound, S-methyl-methionine (SMM), which is itself produced during malting....

DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller.

THIS post is a great one on the subject, and that thread is a good conversation.

I'm very sensitive to DMS, so I generally cool to 150F for my hopstands. Leaving the lid on during the boil, or during the hopstand (above 176F for certain) will encourage DMS to collect in the steam and recondense on the interior of the lid, usually dripping back into the wort when you remove the lid. I like to get to where I'm comfortable there is no DMS formation (or very very little) and then cover my wort for the hopstand to keep airborne stuff from coming in.

Everyone's entitled to brew however it works best for them, and I'm ok with that, but as someone who is very sensitive to DMS (and I don't like it!) I take every precaution possible to avoid it.

Anyone who say's talk of it is "BS" may make fantastic brew, but I question their grasp of the science behind it. DMS is very real. Some boogeymen type fears do exists IMHO, like HSA (speaking in very general terms), but DMS is not one of them.

Highly kilned malts do tend to have less SMM formation (the precursor of DMS), so if you're not sensitive to DMS and you're not using a lot of pilsner malt, you may not even know if your beer has it.

All IMHO, and just for conversation's sake. If anyone is brewing what they consider to be acceptable beer and not thinking twice about DMS formation, more power to them.

 

[eastoak]

All this DMS talk after a 60-90 boil is BS. Every batch I do is a minimum 30 minute whirlpool at 180-200. Pretty much all large breweries do at least a 20 min whirlpool at temps higher than 160.

this is correct. a friend of mine owns a small brewery (rustic ales in capitola ca) and it takes him 2 hrs to chill his 200+ gal kettle, never detected DMS in his beer. i used to hurry my chill when i was starting out, tripping over everything in my hurry to chill the wort down. these days i do a 20-30 min hop stand then gravity feed the wort, with an occasional assist from the pump, which takes another 10-15 min.

 

[McCuckerson]

this is correct. a friend of mine owns a small brewery (rustic ales in capitola ca) and it takes him 2 hrs to chill his 200+ gal kettle, never detected DMS in his beer. i used to hurry my chill when i was starting out, tripping over everything in my hurry to chill the wort down. these days i do a 20-30 min hop stand then gravity feed the wort, with an occasional assist from the pump, which takes another 10-15 min.

+1, DMS is long gone after boil. Think of it this way: my berliner weiss is boiled for 15min. Its pilsner and wheat. Its 1.032OG and there is no detectible DMS.

What I would REALLY like to see is a traditional hop schedule converted to a hop-stand schedule.

 

[wyobrewer1]

+1, DMS is long gone after boil. Think of it this way: my berliner weiss is boiled for 15min. Its pilsner and wheat. Its 1.032OG and there is no detectible DMS.

What I would REALLY like to see is a traditional hop schedule converted to a hop-stand schedule.

Read the BYO article on hop stands. I think he suggests taking your late addition hops an cutting them in half and do a whirlpool (stir if you don't have a pump) for like 20 minutes. And then I think even cut dry hops in half.

 

[eastoak]

+1, DMS is long gone after boil. Think of it this way: my berliner weiss is boiled for 15min. Its pilsner and wheat. Its 1.032OG and there is no detectible DMS.

What I would REALLY like to see is a traditional hop schedule converted to a hop-stand schedule.

you mean all of the hops at flameout? i made 3 pale ales recently that had 20 ibu at 60 min and all the rest at flameout. i used 5 oz of amarillo hops in one of them, just tasted it yesterday, it's still carbing up and green but very good.

 

[McCuckerson]

you mean all of the hops at flameout? i made 3 pale ales recently that had 20 ibu at 60 min and all the rest at flameout. i used 5 oz of amarillo hops in one of them, just tasted it yesterday, it's still carbing up and green but very good.

Have we decided on the temp yet?

 

[eastoak]

Have we decided on the temp yet?

i have not measured the temp but i dump the hops in right at flame out or within a few minutes. i have not experimented with recirculating until i have a lower temp in the kettle then adding the hops but i will. like i said the all amarillo beer tastes very promising so far.

 

[TAK]

Clarity and cold break were only mentioned back on page 4 or so, but I posed the same question recently and this is some info I got:

According to Tom Ayer;
Quote:
Cold break is the precipitation or flocculation of mostly proteins, but also tannins and hop matter, that form when chilling wort rapidly. When wort is chilled very rapidly cold break will begin to form at around 140F.

 

[wyobrewer1]

http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

Read this article.

 

[McCuckerson]

http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

Read this article.

Thanks Wyo, that article was great!

 

[Glynn]

Great article. I would really like to rid dry hopping from some of my routine and this seems like a great way to go

 

[logdrum]

Should the whirlpool go clockwise or counter-clockwise?

 

[wyobrewer1]

Should the whirlpool go clockwise or counter-clockwise?

Depends on which hemisphere you live in.

 

[trent]

Should the whirlpool go clockwise or counter-clockwise?

Ha! Interesting you say this. I built my brewery around the Coriolis effect for this reason (why not??) My HLT, mash tun (for recirculating) and boil kettle all flow clockwise. The only thing that doesn't is my coil in the HLT, it flows counter-clockwise.

 

[terrapinj]

Great article. I would really like to rid dry hopping from some of my routine and this seems like a great way to go

i've done hop stands with a few hop forward beers and while the flavor and aroma contributions are better than adding during the boil, they don't replace the beautiful aroma you get from dry hopping

 

[McCuckerson]

Should the whirlpool go clockwise or counter-clockwise?

Smartass! Lol

 

[McCuckerson]

i've done hop stands with a few hop forward beers and while the flavor and aroma contributions are better than adding during the boil, they don't replace the beautiful aroma you get from dry hopping

If I'm not mistaken, the article had a recipe with both hop stand and dry hop additions. That may be the ticket!

 

[Glynn]

i've done hop stands with a few hop forward beers and while the flavor and aroma contributions are better than adding during the boil, they don't replace the beautiful aroma you get from dry hopping

I dont plan on removing dry hoppng totally but it would be nice to reduce it in my big dry hopped brews such as dipa where the nucleation from the hops makes it a real pain to rack off

 

[dhuggett]

I brewed an APA this weekend with my first attempt at a hop stand. Here is the recipe...

9 lbs 2 row
1 lbs Torrified Wheat
.75 lbs 60L Crystal

1 oz Cascade leaf - FWH
.5 oz Centennial - 30 minutes
.5 oz Centennial - 10 Minutes
1 oz Cascade Leaf - Hop Stand for 60 minutes at 160F

I plan to Dry Hop with 1 oz Cascade as well.

US05 yeast

I am very much looking forward to tasting the results!

Any comments, suggestions?

 

[wyobrewer1]

Sounds awesome. I love centennial. You'll have to let us know how the hopstand does.

 

[wobdee]

I brewed an APA this weekend with my first attempt at a hop stand. Here is the recipe...

9 lbs 2 row
1 lbs Torrified Wheat
.75 lbs 60L Crystal

1 oz Cascade leaf - FWH
.5 oz Centennial - 30 minutes
.5 oz Centennial - 10 Minutes
1 oz Cascade Leaf - Hop Stand for 60 minutes at 160F

I plan to Dry Hop with 1 oz Cascade as well.

US05 yeast

I am very much looking forward to tasting the results!

Any comments, suggestions?

If you really want to get a good feel for FO hops you should move those centennial hops to FO as well in a future brew. I've pretty much eliminated my late boil additions and moved them to FO.

 

[dhuggett]

Have we decided on the temp yet?

I decided in my first attempt at hop stand to cool wort to 160F and then add hops, cover and hold for 60min. Still in fermenter, so the vote is still out...

 

[nofootbreak]

Ive started hop stands at 140-145F and hold them for 30-40 minutes.

The Pale ale im serving now has big hop tropical fruit and floral flavor and aroma. I brewed it for a party full of people who dont like bitter beers so I tried to keep the bitterness low and hop flavor high without getting too much sweetness from the hops to overpower the bitterness.

~24 IBU magnum at 60

.75 oz Galaxy
1 oz Crystal
.75 oz Amarillo all after cooling to 145 F. Temp drops over the 30 minute hop stand to 135F. Stirred with wort chiller once every 5 minutes or so. Fairly labor intensive since I dont have a pump, but for all my hoppy beers Ill be doing this from now on.

I dry hopped with .25 oz galaxy .25 oz amarillo and 1 oz centennial.