homemade PBW a safe line cleaner?

[domdom]

just moved over to kegging and kicked my first keg. bought a cleaning kit from keg connection (https://www.kegconnection.com/beer-line-cleaning-kit/) and it comes with a bag of 'brew clean' which looks like it is their proprietary cleaner since i can't find it anywhere else. i usually use homemade pbw for all my kettle and carboy cleaning (70% oxyclean, 30% TSP), but wanted to check if it works for keg lines as well.

Thanks!

 

[NeoBrew]

All I use is homemade PBW to clean mine. As long as you rinse well you should have no problems. I like to follow the rule that the rinse water has to be at least as hot as the PBW water was to make sure it gets clean.

 

[GolFisHunt]

Please forgive the newbie question, but what is TSP?

 

[alaric10000]

Trisodium phosphate. Used for a lot of things. I've mostly used it for washing walls prior to painting.

 

[GolFisHunt]

Trisodium phosphate. Used for a lot of things. I've mostly used it for washing walls prior to painting.

Thanks!

 

[piojo]

Trisodium phosphate. Used for a lot of things. I've mostly used it for washing walls prior to painting.

No, no, no. PBW does not contain trisodium phosphate. The ingredient is sodium metasilicate. The full formula is "70% sodium percarbonate, 30% sodium metasilicate".

So why the confusion? A long time ago, someone read the acutal ingredients and tried to make it easier for others by substituting brand names (Oxiclean instead of sodium percarbonate, for instance.) Unfortunately there is a brand of sodium metasilicate called "TSP" which is marketed as a replacement for real TSP (trisodium phosphate), which is being phased out due to environmental concerns.

It would be ideal to correct this in every thread we see it: if you are trying to imitate PBW, the formula contains sodium metasilicate, not real TSP.

 

[divrack]

No, no, no. PBW does not contain trisodium phosphate. The ingredient is sodium metasilicate. The full formula is "70% sodium percarbonate, 30% sodium metasilicate".

So why the confusion? A long time ago, someone read the acutal ingredients and tried to make it easier for others by substituting brand names (Oxiclean instead of sodium percarbonate, for instance.) Unfortunately there is a brand of sodium metasilicate called "TSP" which is marketed as a replacement for real TSP (trisodium phosphate), which is being phased out due to environmental concerns.

It would be ideal to correct this in every thread we see it: if you are trying to imitate PBW, the formula contains sodium metasilicate, not real TSP.

Actually it depends where you get it. It still contains tsp in some places. Metasillicate is the phisphate free replacement. Still contains phosphate in Britain.

 

[piojo]

Actually it depends where you get it. It still contains tsp in some places. Metasillicate is the phisphate free replacement. Still contains phosphate in Britain.

That is really interesting, thanks for letting me know!

I couldn't find an actual data sheet, but I found references that say old PBW datasheets mentioned containing phosphates. Maybe the older formula either was percarbonate+TSP or a more complex formulation that contained some TSP.

(I can't find the ingredients in the UK version. That would be cool to know, particularly since I accidentally bought a pound of trisodium phosphate.)

 

[divrack]

That is really interesting, thanks for letting me know!

I couldn't find an actual data sheet, but I found references that say old PBW datasheets mentioned containing phosphates. Maybe the older formula either was percarbonate+TSP or a more complex formulation that contained some TSP.

(I can't find the ingredients in the UK version. That would be cool to know, particularly since I accidentally bought a pound of trisodium phosphate.)

Yea I looked at the sheet on a pack in a lhbs here recently and it wasn't the same as posted. This is after picking up more percarb and metasillicate and edta than any reasonable human will ever need..
Still, just because our government is heroically trying to murder the planet at a similar pace to yours doesn't mean we all need to do so!

 

[divrack]

That is really interesting, thanks for letting me know!

I couldn't find an actual data sheet, but I found references that say old PBW datasheets mentioned containing phosphates. Maybe the older formula either was percarbonate+TSP or a more complex formulation that contained some TSP.

(I can't find the ingredients in the UK version. That would be cool to know, particularly since I accidentally bought a pound of trisodium phosphate.)

Still, if you have it I imagine you can sub it pound for pound.

 

[piojo]

@divrack Yep, I'm thinking of "spiking" the rest of the cleaner by adding 10% TSP to stretch it out and have a phosphate output that's not significantly worse than fertilizing a garden once a year. I was able to get sodium silicate as well, and I'll use more silicate than TSP.

 

[DownHillonWater]

A great thread on this :

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/homemade-pbw-recipe.467655/

 

[piojo]

A great thread on this :

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/homemade-pbw-recipe.467655/

Wow, that patent is a fantastic resource! After reading that, there's no way a simple percarbonate+silicate mix is as good as the real thing. It needs a builder, a chelating agent, a surfactant, and possibly a sequestering agent. (I don't remember which role the silicate plays.)

But that patent is gold. The only thing it doesn't say is whether chelating agent substitutes can work nearly as well as the recommended EDTA.

I should read the thread. Perhaps my questions are answered.

 

[divrack]

Wow, that patent is a fantastic resource! After reading that, there's no way a simple percarbonate+silicate mix is as good as the real thing. It needs a builder, a chelating agent, a surfactant, and possibly a sequestering agent. (I don't remember which role the silicate plays.)

But that patent is gold. The only thing it doesn't say is whether chelating agent substitutes can work nearly as well as the recommended EDTA.

I should read the thread. Perhaps my questions are answered.

i think the conclusion by chemically minded people more qualified than me is that it is basically percarb and metasilicate with edta trisodium if you want/need it for hard water

 

[ITV]

I use a small pump and recirc (10 - 15 minutes) my beer lines using BLC beer line cleaner which is intended to remove beer stone.

I use to use homemade PBW, it worked but would foam up a bit unlike the BLC.

Both seem to work fine but I now I exclusively use the BLC which is intended to clean beer lines. I usually clean my beer lines every month so my experience is based on semi clean beer lines and not filthy neglected beer lines.

 

[piojo]

basically percarb and metasilicate with edta trisodium if you want/need it for hard water

That makes perfect sense to me, but it should also have surfactant. (Any laundry cleaning product will have surfactant, but if you are making it yourself from straight chemicals, add a surfactant. Dish soap is fine. Triton X-100 is one that the patent suggests.)

 

[divrack]

Triton X is a liquid form isn't it? Would have to get some powdered type

 

[piojo]

Triton X is a liquid form isn't it? Would have to get some powdered type

That's a good point. I compounded liquids and solids, but it was a nightmare and I would not recommend it unless you have a vacuum dessicator and a ball mill. I don't.

But since my source of sodium silicate is also liquid, I think next time I'll consider this a liquid/solid two-part product. When I need to use it, I'll just grab a scoop of oxygen cleaner and ten squirts of builder/soap/caustic/chelate from a shampoo bottle.