homebrewing costs

[remilard]

I have over 12 gallons of Belgian strong ales sitting around. That would retail for nearly 600 dollars. It cost me a hundred bucks to make them.

It costs you a hundred bucks plus tens of hours of leisure time.

12 gallons of american made belgian style beer in kegs would be about $200 and half an hour of leisure time.

 

[osagedr]

Agree 100%.

I love these threads because I love reading the wacky justifications the economists of our community come up with...

Ahem. On behalf of economists, I shall respond to your gauntlet-toss.

The field of microeconomics, broadly speaking, consists of consumer theory and producer theory. In general producer theory focuses on profit-maximizing behaviour of firms. Consumer theory focuses on utility-maximizing behaviour of individuals. "Utility" can be thought of as happiness or satisfaction. I think when people are trying to discuss the economics of homebrewing, they focus too much on the production cost side and not enough on the utility side.

Once we understand that money is only one component of what gives people utility, we can understand why they would brew their own beer even if it costs them more than buying beer would. We brew because it (in general) makes us happy (as most of our hobbies do), regardless of the cost tradeoff between commercial beer and home brew.

So economists are correct in insisting that for cost comparisons alone, equipment, brewing time, etc. should all be factored in. But in spite of that, it's still rational to brew--it must be; we keep doing it!

I like to think of it this way: a Saturday golfing out of town somewhere would probably cost me $80 to $100 by the time I paid green fees, gas to get there, couple of meals, sleeve of balls, whatever. I don't factor my opportunity cost for my time into that so I don't do it when I brew, either. I spend a day having a blast making beer and at the end of it get 50 bottles or more to drink.

 

[Airborneguy]

Ahem. On behalf of economists, I shall respond to your gauntlet-toss.

I did, didn't I

"Utility" can be thought of as happiness or satisfaction.

I'm obviously not a student of economics, but if this is the case, than wouldn't the time spent brewing actually be a "positive" rather than a "negative"? If my time spent brewing is creating satisfaction for me, than in theory it should not factor in as a cost, but rather a benefit, no?

...we can understand why they would brew their own beer even if it costs them more than buying beer would.

Not taking time into account (bear with me for one second), even factoring in equipment (which I do), actual costs are FAR LESS than the equivelent amount of a commercial beer. I believe a discussion regarding quality is pointless because quality is subjective, and I find a lot of the time people wrongly assume that "commercial" always equals "quality" anyway. So beer style to beer style, is it not quite obvious that a brewer who routinely puts out batches of drinkable beer, can easily beat the cost of the equivelent volume of a commercial example, even with equipment considered?

But in spite of that, it's still rational to brew--it must be; we keep doing it!

Agreed, and with your earlier point also that even if I did believe it cost me more money, I would still do it (that's not the case though ).

I don't factor my opportunity cost for my time into that so I don't do it when I brew, either.

This is what I just can't wrap my head around. I understand you don't do it, but others are quite content in factoring that they can make money at any given minute of any given day. That must be some life, walking around an amusement park with your kids all upset that you could be making money instead... I have a job. I work every required hour of that job and make a set salary. I even occasionally do overtime. My leisure time is the time I am not required to be at my job. That leisure time costs me nothing because there is no satisfactory dollar amount to equate it to without taking wild assumptions into account. Call me a simplifier, but it really makes no sense to me how my spending my leisure time brewing is costing me anything.

 

[drunkwookiee]

You make it what it is. If your equipment is given to you or you get it cheap. If you have group buys or a good lhbs, that also helps, Your already gaining. $25 for 5 gals of bad ass beer ain't too bad. Myself, being in s Florida and no brew shops around I have to order all my ingredients. Ferment chamber and all that. Im deffinetly in the red, but I like it and I can afford it so that's all that matters .

Sent from my iPhone using HB Talk

 

[sean6247]

My leisure time is the time I am not required to be at my job. That leisure time costs me nothing because there is no satisfactory dollar amount to equate it to without taking wild assumptions into account. Call me a simplifier, but it really makes no sense to me how my spending my leisure time brewing is costing me anything.

In my case, specifically, I am a licensed soccer referee. When I referee games I make anywhere between $35 and $75 depending on the level and duration of the match. There are soccer games to be refereed going on all the time, weekdays weekends, evenings..... almost always.

So for me, choosing to partake in a hobby (brewing) comes at an opportunity cost of referring soccer games. That does not mean that I want to spend all my free time referring (Diminishing utility). But, just to serve as an example of how spending my leisure time brewing can cost me money.

 

[Sparqui]

I never bothered with the cost analysis. I make beer that I like on a family brewday with 4 - 6 brewers participating. Quality family time is priceless. Getting 5 gallons of different beer styles that I like out of the deal is icing on the cake.

The only one I didn't care for was the Red Ale. Before telling my brother his beer was lousy I tried Red Ale at a couple of brewpubs and found his tasted like theirs. He hit the style dead on, I just happen to not care for it. I told him it tasted just like what a Red Ale should.

 

[huge1s]

In my case, specifically, I am a licensed soccer referee. When I referee games I make anywhere between $35 and $75 depending on the level and duration of the match. There are soccer games to be refereed going on all the time, weekdays weekends, evenings..... almost always.

So for me, choosing to partake in a hobby (brewing) comes at an opportunity cost of referring soccer games. That does not mean that I want to spend all my free time referring (Diminishing utility). But, just to serve as an example of how spending my leisure time brewing can cost me money.

You are probably a good example of when it would be appropriate to factor in your opportunity costs in terms of a dollar amount. You are actually giving up dollars in order to do something else. I suppose you could get carried away and say that a salaried person that is not at work is giving up the opportunity to make money elsewhere.... but who is going to find a paying job for 6 hours a month (or however often you brew)?

 

[Airborneguy]

In Sean's case, there is a definable value that can be placed on the hours spent brewing. Even though I still don't believe that should be counted because its still assuming other factors, I'll acede the point in his situation.

But again, in my case I earn a salary. I am not using comp time to take off and am brewing on my regular day off with zero impact to money in or money out. There is no clearly definable way to value my leisure time without making wild assumptions, period. That is why economics should not the be judge of how much my pints cost to produce, but rather simple accounting.

 

[JefeTheVol]

I dont know about you guys, but homebrewing cost me nothing! Its all positives! Even bad batches are positive lessons learned...but hey, Im a beer-half-full kinda guy. But I enjoy reading the economic justifications of other brewers.

 

[bottlebomber]

I dont know about you guys, but homebrewing cost me nothing! Its all positives! Even bad batches are positive lessons learned...but hey, Im a beer-half-full kinda guy. But I enjoy reading the economic justifications of other brewers.

That's amazing! Do you harvest wild grains and hops? Or lift grain sacks off the truck from your LHBS?

 

[makomachine]

Damn the costs - everyone needs a hobby and it might as well be beer for me. Life is too short to be focussed on this stuff - enjoy it while you can as someday that carboy may be too heavy to manage!

 

[osagedr]

Let's put it this way...not only do I not value my leisure time at a rate equal to foregone work time, you'd have to pay me A LOT not to brew.

 

[bottlebomber]

Let's put it this way...not only do I not value my leisure time at a rate equal to foregone work time, you'd have to pay me A LOT not to brew.

Yes! You would have to pay me thousands, and keep me swimming in FREE craft beer. Im plugging that into my spread sheet right now...

 

[sweaterman]

Most hobbies aren't about saving money, they are about having an enjoyable hobby. Fishing doesn't save money, when you add in the cost of a boat! Sewing doesn't save money when you consider the cost of fabric and patterns. The soapmaking stuff (quality oils and butters) is obscenely expensive, and certainly doesn't save any money. Gardening probably does (Bob's obsession) except for the cost of the greenhouse.

But we have custom made duvet covers on the bed, great homemade soaps for showering, and wonderful organic vegetables and fresh fish with our beer.

Life is good.

Nail, head, hammer. Something like that.

 

[remilard]

Let's put it this way...not only do I not value my leisure time at a rate equal to foregone work time, you'd have to pay me A LOT not to brew.

By definition you value leisure time at a higher rate than forgone work.

 

[bottlebomber]

By definition you value leisure time at a higher rate than forgone work.

Not if your unemployed.

 

[Pappers_]

This point has been made in other places on the forums: economics and accounting are different fields and lead you to different approaches to this issue. For me (and most people, I think) the cost of any hobby is an accounting issue, not an economics issue. For me, what my hobby costs me is what shows up on the ledger - its the cash, baby.

 

[KuntzBrewing]

I love reading all this! And like others have said even a bad batch is a lessoned learned, I learned so much off my first all grain! Even tho my brewing usually cost more I didn't start this thread as a complaint, it was just to see why everyone got into brewing, its a great hobby for me and it does save money in the long run!

 

[lumpher]

By definition you value leisure time at a higher rate than forgone work.

since i'm salaried, and get paid anyway... i'd rather be brewing

 

[Steelers77]

I envy you.

I do 5 gallon batches, and the only possible pieces of equipment I could use that could help me produce better beer are a stir plate and refractometer, neither which are necessary. [/B].

And you can make a Stir plate for about $25.

I am fortunate enough to own a homebrewing supply shop so I spend about $8-13 for a 5 gallon batch of beer (depend on yeast, if I buy liquid I spend a bit more. Damn you East Coast Yeast!).

That being said, before I had a store (when I was laid off) I brewed a ton becuase it SAVED me money. Yeah I know if you have a $2500 semi automated rig and you account for that, then you don't save money.

If you brew with a cooler you got 10yrs ago with a copper manifold and ball valve($25) on you turkey fryer from Walmart that 10yrs old ($35) and in your 36qt bayou classic pot ($70) then you will save money.

I actually have all the parts for a Brutus clone (including the stand and 3 keggles) sitting around and I continue to use my old setup. I'm just use to it and I make fantastic beer on it. FYI, I just spent $20 on 8-16oz Daisy Cutters and I;m pretty sure the summer ale I have on tap at my house is better. I'm not saying it;s not a good beer, mine is just fresher.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

If you brew with a cooler you got 10yrs ago with a copper manifold and ball valve($25) on you turkey fryer from Walmart that 10yrs old ($35) and in your 36qt bayou classic pot ($70) then you will save money.

That's basically my rig! But mine is all new so hasn't paid for it's self yet. But it actually will pay for it's self unlike the fancy rigs some people have (not talking trash, I wish I had one myself).

I'd like to spend lots of money on brew equipment, but I'm broke as **** (I didn't really cuss, I just typed stars).

I also spend a lot of time a money on my garden. It's funny; it's harder to calculate how much I would spend on vegetables that how much I spend on beer. Guess I'm a regular drinker, but just a social eater. But it's the same basic thing. I send a notable amount of money, and a anus ton of time for limited financial pay back. But every year I make it cheaper. This year I grew everything from seed saving lots of money. Next year I'll grow my own barley and combine hobbies (joking).

 

[Bobby_M]

Holy hell, why won't this topic die already? If you save money by brewing and you enjoy it, awesome. If you blow all of your disposable income, free time, and carry incredible credit card debt buying Blingman conicals, but you enjoy yourself, extra awesome. Nothing that will be said in any of these cost-themed threads is going to drive anyone away from brewing so it's irrelevant. If you thought you were saving ton of cash and someone convinced you that you were wrong, you'll still brew this weekend but your boner will only be half mast.

 

[bob1852]

Holy hell, why won't this topic die already?

Bobby, my last batch cost me $0 to make. The way I figure it, if people aren't going to include their time, water, propane, equipment that make bulk purchases reasonable (mills, yeast rinsing, vaccuum sealers for hops, etc.), then I'm not going to include any costs at all!

My homebrew is free!

 

[Pascal]

half mast? I'm planning a choc cherry stout this weekend. I don't see that as a problem.

 

[joeybeer]

Almighty Me has the answer to all your problems, and here it is !!!
If you won the lottery tomorrow - would you still homebrew ???
Damn right I would, but on a MUCH larger and more exciting scale, and all of y'all would drink for free !

 

[DannPM]

Depends on what you drink. My favorite beers are Trappist beers, averaging around $5 for an 11.2 ounce bottle. That's roughly $285 for 5 gallons before sales tax. Cheaper in the short run, much cheaper in the long run. Plus it's my passion, win win.

 

[emjay]

Almighty Me has the answer to all your problems, and here it is !!!
If you won the lottery tomorrow - would you still homebrew ???
Damn right I would, but on a MUCH larger and more exciting scale, and all of y'all would drink for free !

If the lottery winnings were large enough, I'd open a freaking brewpub.

With a smaller amount of winnings, I'd definitely AT LEAST pimp out my homebrew setup.

 

[joeybeer]

Let's be honest, if I won $200 it would improve my beer somehow..if I won $250M we'd all be skateboarding in my empty fermenters

 

[Bobby_M]

If I didn't have to work for money, the LAST thing I'd do is open up a commercial brewing operation of any kind. That's just a new way to work your ass off. I'd still be brewing 5 gallons at a time but I wouldn't feel as bad about the time spent doing it (i.e., I'd already be paying people to do all the crap I normally have to get done). I'd probably also have cleaning staff of some kind and yes, cleaning the "brewhouse" would be included in the list of duties.

 

[emjay]

If I didn't have to work for money, the LAST thing I'd do is open up a commercial brewing operation of any kind. That's just a new way to work your ass off. I'd still be brewing 5 gallons at a time but I wouldn't feel as bad about the time spent doing it (i.e., I'd already be paying people to do all the crap I normally have to get done). I'd probably also have cleaning staff of some kind and yes, cleaning the "brewhouse" would be included in the list of duties.

I would open up a small brewpub and just pay people to do the same stuff. Breaking even, or even taking a sustainable loss, would be alright - profit would only be a concern as long as I am able to love what I do.