Homebrew ROI?

[geoffm33]

WOOHOO!!! We made it to page three and there is no debate (yet) over factoring in labor costs or not. New record! :fro:

 

[kombat]

The saying goes, "Homebrewing to save money on beer is like buying a boat to save money on fish."

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

WOOHOO!!! We made it to page three and there is no debate (yet) over factoring in labor costs or not. New record! :fro:

Since home brewing is fun, labor is free. We're on page 4 so we can discuss this now.

 

[geoffm33]

Since home brewing is fun, labor is free. We're on page 4 so we can discuss this now.

Absolutely. With the amount of money my friends spend on golf, homebrewing is cheap fun. But when they are done golfing, they have to buy beers. My beers are the byproduct of my hobby

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

Oh shoot you're in Boston! Sup buddy.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I got in this hobby with the plan to have a set up that could handle brewing higher abv 6gal batches while keeping initial investment cost down. The whole set up cost me around $350. With most of my beers costing 50¢-$1, give or take, Ive saved a lot of money making my own beer.

Now I'm starting to invest more into my set up where I think it will have the biggest contributions to my beer or will make brewing easier. Things like a submersible pump to use my pool as a reservoir to run my IC, nice thermoworks thermometer, orange cooler to use as a HLT for fly sparging, oxygen wand, and most recently an 8.8 cu ft freezer to make the jump to kegging. So that probably brings me to about $1000 total investment. But with the 100+ gal I brew a year, not including cider, I'm sure Ive saved more than I've spent.

 

[geoffm33]

Oh shoot you're in Boston! Sup buddy.

Hey man! How's it going?!?

 

[Xpertskir]

Once my barrels of sour beer start producing I'll be printing homebrew money.

Median retail sour beer prices are around 650 per 5 gallons. So each barrel I have has about 7500 or so in retail cost sour beer in it. Total ingredient cost of 300ish including barrel yields ~7200 in profit every couple years. That pays for a ****load of equipment.

The economics of other styles are far less favorable, even if you are buying hops and grain in bulk and yeast ranching. I'd argue that the increased consumption(not considering giveaways) home brewing causes wipes out any potential gains after amortizing equipment.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

Probably one of the most controversial topics when it comes to home brewing. The reality is that it's different for everyone. It depends largely on how much beer you would drink (whether you brew it yourself or not), how much that beer costs, how much you spend on equipment and how much you spend on ingredients. I believe I'm saving money vs buying the beer I like to drink, but I also don't count labor as an opportunity cost. But, if you want to single out time/labor as a cost look at it this way. Equipment aside, brewing craft beer is cheaper than buying it (if you play your cards right). Divide the money you save by the time it took you to brew, and that's how much money your labor earned you. Add a percentage to that, since you don't have to pay taxes on it, and you make even more money. Instead of saving that money, I invested it in equipment. If you build as cheaply as possible and design a system that will meet your needs for life without additional upgrades, you will eventually break even on it (assuming you are going to be a life long beer drinker). At that point, the money you saved brewing vs buying payed for the equipment you bought. From this point on, you actually save money. Time isn't really a big deal for me. I enjoy brewing and I could have spent that time doing something completely unproductive like watching tv. If time is a big factor for you, brew larger batches to make brewday more time efficient. I jumped up to 30 gallon batches for just that reason. I can brew 30 gallons in about 12 hours. That's only 2 hours per 5 gallon batch. Not too shabby. Add in a little extra time for yeast starters, kegging, yada yada and it still isn't that awful bad compared to brewing 5 gallon batches all the time. I will agree with everyone in that if you are home brewing exclusively to save money, you probably won't. But, if you are a life long beer drinker, genuinely enjoy the hobby, and would have otherwise spent that time doing something completely unproductive, then it can save you money in the long run.

 

[elkshadow]

I don't remember how much I spent but I bought:

5 gallon cooler (a friend from another board gave me the valve so I didn't need that)
Turkey fryer burner with 8 gallon pot
20 pound propane tank
roll of copper tubing to make an immersion chiller

That was it for the "expensive stuff."

Other stuff like hydrometer, thief, cheap buckets from the restaurant supply store, hose, etc...

I make 3 gallon batches in my condo.

I probably have around 400 in startup equipment. Up til now, I've averaged $1 a bottle (I make mostly 10%+ beers) but I'm getting ready to get a mill and vacuum sealer and buy grain and hops in bulk which I'm calculating will cut my per-bottle cost almost in half.

 

[broadbill]

Probably one of the most controversial topics when it comes to home brewing. The reality is that it's different for everyone. It depends largely on how much beer you would drink (whether you brew it yourself or not), how much that beer costs, how much you spend on equipment and how much you spend on ingredients. I believe I'm saving money vs buying the beer I like to drink, but I also don't count labor as an opportunity cost. But, if you want to single out time/labor as a cost look at it this way. Equipment aside, brewing craft beer is cheaper than buying it (if you play your cards right). Divide the money you save by the time it took you to brew, and that's how much money your labor earned you. Add a percentage to that, since you don't have to pay taxes on it, and you make even more money. Instead of saving that money, I invested it in equipment. If you build as cheaply as possible and design a system that will meet your needs for life without additional upgrades, you will eventually break even on it (assuming you are going to be a life long beer drinker). At that point, the money you saved brewing vs buying payed for the equipment you bought. From this point on, you actually save money. Time isn't really a big deal for me. I enjoy brewing and I could have spent that time doing something completely unproductive like watching tv. If time is a big factor for you, brew larger batches to make brewday more time efficient. I jumped up to 30 gallon batches for just that reason. I can brew 30 gallons in about 12 hours. That's only 2 hours per 5 gallon batch. Not too shabby. Add in a little extra time for yeast starters, kegging, yada yada and it still isn't that awful bad compared to brewing 5 gallon batches all the time. I will agree with everyone in that if you are home brewing exclusively to save money, you probably won't. But, if you are a life long beer drinker, genuinely enjoy the hobby, and would have otherwise spent that time doing something completely unproductive, then it can save you money in the long run.

I'll play devils advocate here...if time wasn't an issue for you, then you wouldn't have upgraded to a 30 gallon system. If time wasn't an issue then you would have been more than happy to fritter way 4-6 hours at a whack on 5 gallon batches with the added (intangible) advantage of producing different beers. Imiright?

Or maybe you realized that your time is indeed worth something so you went with a larger system to realize what is known as an economy of scale.

 

[b-boy]

ROI < 0. Way less.

 

[Spartan1979]

If you're homebrewing to save money, is it really a hobby?

 

[agrazela]

There's no ROI in homebrew, because there's nothing to compare the value of your homebrew to. You are creating absolutely fresh beer, made exactly the way you like it. You can't even get that at the store!

(P.S., at decent craft beer prices pushing $12 a six / $40+/case at the store, yes, I am straight-up saving money...if not time...making beer that I enjoy every bit as much.)

(P.P.S., with "local-ish" halibut going for $18/lb, seabass $12/lb and rockfish $8/lb at the store--and those also aren't "fresh" by my definition--my little skiff absolutely IS saving me money on fish, too!)

 

[mystikhybrid]

This prompted me to try to actually calculate my ROI. My household consumes alot of beer, so this is all assuming anything brewed would have otherwise been purchased. I'm sure I left some things out (please let me know if you notice anything wrong), but the results, (if my math is correct) are quite surprising.

Equipment
Megapot 15 Gallon Kettle $200
New Immersion chiller $100
Old 8 Gallon Kettle $50
Old Immersion Chiller $50
Upcycled Mash Tun $40
Bayou Burner $50
Initial Extract Equipment Kit $70

Refractometer $50
2 Glass Carboys $80
2 Plastic Carboys $40
4 Bungs & airlocks $8
Crappy Thermometers $50
Thermoworks Thermometer $60

2 Kegs $120
Co2 Tank $85
Co2 Regulator & Splitter $70
Tap Tower $180
Mini Refridgerator $100
38DD Fermentation Chamber $120
Yeast Stirplate $30

Propane & Co2 Refills $100
Various Acessories $100

TOTAL Investment: <$1,760
__________________________________________________

Savings/ROI on 1 year of 6 gal batch brewing

Average 6 gallon AG Recipe Cost: $30
Average 12 oz homebrewed beer cost: $0.50

Average 6 gallon craft beer cost: $90
Average 12 oz craft beer cost: $1.50

Savings per batch: $60

Batches per year: 36

Savings per year: $2160

__________________________________________________

Savings/ROI on 1 year of 10 gal batch brewing
(upgraded to 10-12 gal setup in 2014)
Average 10 gallon AG Recipe Cost: $50
Average 12 oz homebrewed beer cost: $0.50

Average 6 gallon craft beer cost: $150
Average 12 oz craft beer cost: $1.50

Savings per batch: $100

Batches per year: 36

Savings per year: $3600

 

[Spartan1979]

BTW, I'm not figuring out what I've spent on homebrew equipment. I don't want my wife to find out.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

BTW, I'm not figuring out what I've spent on homebrew equipment. I don't want my wife to find out.

That is awesome. Incrementalism can be useful for us, eh?

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

Savings/ROI on 1 year of 6 gal batch brewing

Average 6 gallon AG Recipe Cost: $30
Average 12 oz homebrewed beer cost: $0.50

Average 6 gallon craft beer cost: $90
Average 12 oz craft beer cost: $1.50

Savings per batch: $60

Batches per year: 36

Savings per year: $2160

__________________________________________________

Savings/ROI on 1 year of 10 gal batch brewing
(upgraded to 10-12 gal setup in 2014)
Average 10 gallon AG Recipe Cost: $50
Average 12 oz homebrewed beer cost: $0.50

Average 6 gallon craft beer cost: $150
Average 12 oz craft beer cost: $1.50

Savings per batch: $100

Batches per year: 36

Savings per year: $3600

Somebody went over their yearly household limit of home-brew production...

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Well factor in some loss to trub and such and I bet he squeaked under the 200 limit by a gallon or two.

 

[two_hearted]

Your ROI is beer. You invest money in equipment and you get beer in return. seems like a no brainer to me!

 

[chato]

BTW, I'm not figuring out what I've spent on homebrew equipment. I don't want my wife to find out.

That is awesome. Incrementalism can be useful for us, eh?

If I were to try to factor in marital stress, I'd NEVER get a positive ROI!

 

[Jeffries55]

As a newish home brewer/engineer/guy that loves to spend money on cool stuff, I was just wondering how much you guys think you have spent on brew kettles, carboys, fancy ferment chambers, kegs, keezers, etc and how many bottles of beer you have made.

I really enjoy making my own beer (or other adult beverages) but i'm thinking it will be a while until it starts to pay off financially . . .

If you're thinking about ROI, you're doing it all wrong Initially, it seems like it might be possible, but as you get more involved and interested in trying to make better beer, all that thought about saving money goes out the window!

This doesn't even count the disproportionate amount of money you'll spend on "just trying" other craft brews! I've spent more on beer after starting brewing, than I ever did before I knew how to make it.

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

Does it make you happy? Do you make others happy with your hobby? You sure do. The hobby itself is priceless. You are going to lose money no matter what on a hobby unless your hobby is day trading and you are good at it. Sure I have spent more money on this hobby than it has brought in but I also have awards and medals that are worth more to me. With this hobby I have also gathered historical knowledge and so much more. Most of all, the camaraderie of fellow homebrewers.

On top of that, brewing beers I like to drink and learning about different ingredients including lately the importance of water. I have made dumpers and I have made batches that go so fast, you wonder where they went. Most of all, variety.

 

[geoffm33]

Also have to factor in the tasty dog treats from the spent grain.

 

[Airplanedoc]

Make a couple batches of wine for SWMBO, the "profit" margin is greater.

Also sometimes its good to have women hanging around your bar too

 

[sparkshooter]

I'm certainly at a negative ROI at this particular point in my journey, although in the next year or so, I expect to have monetarily broken even.

It seems like most people are posting from places with relatively modest alcohol taxes. Here in Ontario, it's scary easy to drop $15 on a six pack of okay but not amazing craft brews. The cheapest non-BMC brews are $2/500 ml can.

Since ingredient prices are basically the same as the US (and not-taxed, which "saves" me 13%), there is a huge price difference between a home brew batch and a commercial craft brew.

 

[Sacto-SF]

I made it a goal to spend less than if I had bought similar beer, so I keep track of everything (equipment, ingredients, cleaning supplies). It doesn't take long to meet this goal, if you want. Note that this is fun to me and not a chore. My setup is all grain (often home-roasting my own specialty grains) > corona mill > BIAB in a turkey fryer pot > ferment in a better bottle (swamp cooler as needed) > bottle (and I love it).

Current running cost per 12 oz bottle produced: $1.20 (lets call that conservatively $0.30 per bottle saved)

Amount saved by doing this instead of something else with my time: lots and lots

I figure that even I "break even", I've had a lot of fun doing it and I've taken up a lot of time that could have gone toward costly hobbies. In fact, I don't like the term "hobbies" very much. I drink beer, so I brew it. I eat food, so I grow it. I like music so I play it. I play music so I make musical instruments.

 

[Airplanedoc]

If you are worried about the ROI on homebrewing... Never buy a boat, a plane, a gun, a fast car, a Ring, a Wife, a kid I'm sure I could go on.

 

[ACbrewer]

I don't think you can break even. The most obvious - ingredients. Sure I can break even or get ahead. Ok now include equipment, and energy cost (elect or propane) and lastly that element that is impossible to over come - TIME. Never ever will I get ahead, unless I start making something to compare to a Westvlentren 12.

I could discount the time saying "if I weren't brewing I'd other hobby for $$$ or waste on video games or such" so sure the time I make beer isn't saving/making me money if I do something else with it.

I could also discount the equipment saying "if I have a hobby it will have gear which will cost...."

And I could just compare buying ingredients to buying beer - ok, then I'm ahead on every batch.

But the most important ROI is I can make what I want and not have to look for it. I can make a lemon wine (skeeterpee.com) and I can't buy that. I can make a dark wheat which I can't find to buy. so from that pov, the return is priceless. I may make a beer that the rest of the world hates, but if I love it, I've won. I make the beer for my consumption, not for a nation of 300 million (paging BMC)

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

This prompted me to try to actually calculate my ROI. My household consumes alot of beer, so this is all assuming anything brewed would have otherwise been purchased. I'm sure I left some things out (please let me know if you notice anything wrong), but the results, (if my math is correct) are quite surprising.

Equipment
Megapot 15 Gallon Kettle $200
New Immersion chiller $100
Old 8 Gallon Kettle$50
Old Immersion Chiller$50
Upcycled Mash Tun$40
Bayou Burner$50
Initial Extract Equipment Kit$70

Refractometer$50
2 Glass Carboys$80
2 Plastic Carboys$40
4 Bungs & airlocks$8
Crappy Thermometers$50
Thermoworks Thermometer$60

2 Kegs$120
Co2 Tank$85
Co2 Regulator & Splitter$70
Tap Tower$180
Mini Refridgerator$100
38DD Fermentation Chamber$120
Yeast Stirplate$30

Propane & Co2 Refills$100
Various Acessories$100

TOTAL Investment:<$1,760
__________________________________________________

Savings/ROI on 1 year of 6 gal batch brewing

Average 6 gallon AG Recipe Cost:$30
Average 12 oz homebrewed beer cost:$0.50

Average 6 gallon craft beer cost:$90
Average 12 oz craft beer cost:$1.50

Savings per batch:$60

Batches per year:36

Savings per year:$2160

__________________________________________________

Savings/ROI on 1 year of 10 gal batch brewing
(upgraded to 10-12 gal setup in 2014)
Average 10 gallon AG Recipe Cost:$50
Average 12 oz homebrewed beer cost:$0.50

Average 6 gallon craft beer cost:$150
Average 12 oz craft beer cost:$1.50

Savings per batch:$100

Batches per year:36

Savings per year:$3600

I think this is a good starting point. The one thing that can only be assessed individually is putting a $ amount on your time to get a full perspective. Without doing that your not really considering all the factors. If your someone that makes a lot of money and your time isn't cheap then its cheaper to buy beer. Any savings you made brewing wouldnt outweigh your losses had you spent that time working. Now say you make $10/hr after taxes, then the savings you netted brewing your own equals out to the amount you could have made working that same amount of time, assuming your brewday is 6 hrs. You break even.

To sum it up... The more you drink and the lower your hourly wage the better your ROI. Am I missing something here?