Homebrew can save you lots of money

[Bobby_M]

So basically, the most honest way to approach this is as if you were writing a business plan for a commercial brewery. I assure you the head brewer won't work for free just because they like brewing.

Amortized Equipment Costs (if you can buy everything used, you would reduce this but even if you were to resell at the exact same price 5 years later, that money was tied up). This is an opportunity cost of capital problem.

Per batch ingredient costs. Sounds straight forward, but make sure you think about spoilage of excess unused stuff. If you buy a pound of hops for $10 but only get around to using half before it goes stale, the cost was really $10/8oz. If you buy a pound of Special B for a recipe that only calls for 12 oz, don't remove 4oz of cost from the batch unless you know you're going to use the 4oz somewhere.

Other consumables:

Propane (non trivial as I think most people get two 5 gallon all grain batches out of a typical $20 fill) Correct me if I'm wrong.
Water (about $1-2 on a muni supply)
Salts cheap
Filters (if you brew often, probably on the $.25 a brew level)

What about the dumper batches?

How many brewing books did you buy?

How much time do you spend crafting a recipe?

I'll even grant that fridge hobby-specific costs like HBT membership or AHA members, etc are not direct costs of brewing beer. It could be argued that attending the NHC might reduce your bad batch percentage marginally, but it's really just something you choose to do because it's fun.

Frankly, I don't track my costs at all for the exact argument most are making. This is a hobby. Then again, I don't go around claiming it's a great way to save money. If I did, I'd have all the figures.

 

[Airborneguy]

In that case, it is pure economics question and all cost must be considered. To address it logically, you have put pull the homebrew obsession out of your head and address it as if it were a boring task.

Look at it this way:

The labor involved is strenuous, not everyone can physically do it, and you may even injure yourself while brewing. One must consider whether the labor involved is worth the money saved by undertaking it.

But to figure an actual cost of that labor when deciding whether money is saved, you have to assume certain factors which cannot be quantified. Do you know what YOUR labor is worth in regards to brewing? Do you LOSE money while brewing? If I chose to brew as opposed to work, and forego the pay I would have earned, then there is a quantifiable labor cost. But if all I am foregoing is liesure time, there is no quantifiable cost to the labor I am performing.

Furthermore, remember that you are likely leaving out many quantifiable costs when you consider the beer you are comparing your homebrew to: how much did it cost to drive to the store? How much time did you spend procuring the beer and what is that time worth? Is that time also worth half of your regular hourly salary? Do we factor in car maintenance involved with the miles driven? My point is not that we should consider these costs, but that it would be an pointless comparison unless you left your house with the only goal being to pick up beer and headed to the store, spent time there, then headed straight home.

So I believe the labor cost in a non-factor unless you are actually foregoing pay to spend time brewing instead. Otherwise, the labor is a factor to consider when deciding if it is personally worth the effort to save the money, but not as an actual cost.

Think of clipping coupons. You might say "Is it worth my time to grab a flyer and clip coupons that will save me $5?", but you don't say "How much money does the amount of time cost to me to seek out coupons that may only save me $5?"

"Time is money" is a nice saying, with further clarification that's all it is, a nice saying.

 

[redcoat_or_rebel]

I try so hard not to post in these threads because they are so numerous but screw it, I'm bored.

I'm sorry, but people who post "but it's a hobby so you don't consider labor cost" are missing a huge point. This audience is already biased that homebrewing is fun. No ****. If it were a drag, we wouldn't be doing it. That proves the point right there. If you didn't find it fun, you wouldn't do it as a means of saving money.

If the statement was "homebrewing is a fun hobby and cheap beer is the icing on top" then you get no argument. We all agree.

However, the statement or rather the question is usually "can you really save money on beer by brewing it yourself?". In that case, it is pure economics question and all cost must be considered. To address it logically, you have put pull the homebrew obsession out of your head and address it as if it were a boring task.

For example, can you really save money by walking to work? Of course you can so why don't you? Of course, there are a billion other things you can save money on at the expense of time/labor but you skip 99% of them because they are not hobbies you are interested in.

At least work in a labor rate of HALF of your actual hourly wage to make it fair.

Apologies to the OP as I know you actually meant to write, "How buying in bulk reduces the cost of homebrewing" and you had no idea how well developed this debate is around here ;-)

nah, they said it correctly a few posts up. unless you could be actually making money during the time you are brewing then labor doesn't count. i can't brew from 8-5 mon-fri because i work. if i take a day off of work to brew then yes, figure labor into the cost of the brew. otherwise you would not be making money from that time spent brewing.

say i make $10/hr at my job. that doesn't mean you can make $10/hr at any job you do. you don't one simplified hourly wage for your time. if you have a second job at 7-11 then your second job's labor is probably lower than your main job. but again, it doesn't matter unless you actually have an opportunity to make money doing something else while you are brewing.

 

[bottlebomber]

But you are not figuring in the cost of your labor. How much an hour are you worth? :rockin:

You should tell your wife you want to get paid for your labor... lol brewing is a pleasure

 

[Airborneguy]

Another way to look at it, as simple as it sounds, is this:

You go to buy your beer, I make it. Total labor time is lets just say 7 hours for me, while your trip to the store takes 20 minutes.

In the 6:40 minutes that you have that I used brewing, did you make any money? If not, then I didn't lose any money relative to your quicker trip. The actual time spent is worth NOTHING to either of us because it does not have a quantifiable cost relative to the activity we used that time for.

 

[Bobby_M]

Since the point is being missed (again due to hobby bias), answer the question about why you don't walk to work. (and if you do actually walk to work or work from home, commenting as such is douchy).

If you work say 10 miles away from home, you could walk it and save gas, potential accidents, moving violations, and even get more healthy and reduce health related cost in the future. What's the downside? You have to dedicate time and energy that are worth a lot more to you than the money than that which can be saved.

Opportunity cost doesn't only apply when that alternative time spent is earning actual wages.

Again, why can't you guys put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't enjoy brewing? It's a simple exercise. All you have to do is ask yourself why you don't do some other laborious activity that you already pay someone else for?

Another example, I'm sure there are some people on here that pay a landscaper to cut the grass. Why don't you cut it yourself?

This is a build vs. buy equation.

 

[bob1852]

I'll even grant that fridge hobby-specific costs like HBT membership or AHA members, etc are not direct costs of brewing beer. It could be argued that attending the NHC might reduce your bad batch percentage marginally, but it's really just something you choose to do because it's fun.

I added NHC costs this year, mainly because I wouldn't be going to NHC unless I homebrewed, so to me that's a "cost" of this hobby.

Frankly, I don't track my costs at all for the exact argument most are making. This is a hobby. Then again, I don't go around claiming it's a great way to save money. If I did, I'd have all the figures.

I sorta track costs just for the fun of it...and I know I'm not being complete even if I did try to include time, water, & propane. For example, I used a **** load of sandpaper and wood working tools to build my keezer. I didn't include much of that as a cost - just the freezer, Johnson controller, lumber, and keg hardware. But, I'm not lying to myself by pretending that I'm all inclusive in my "costs" for this hobby.

 

[redcoat_or_rebel]

Look at it this way:

The labor involved is strenuous, not everyone can physically do it, and you may even injure yourself while brewing. One must consider whether the labor involved is worth the money saved by undertaking it.

But to figure an actual cost of that labor when deciding whether money is saved, you have to assume certain factors which cannot be quantified. Do you know what YOUR labor is worth in regards to brewing? Do you LOSE money while brewing? If I chose to brew as opposed to work, and forego the pay I would have earned, then there is a quantifiable labor cost. But if all I am foregoing is liesure time, there is no quantifiable cost to the labor I am performing.

Furthermore, remember that you are likely leaving out many quantifiable costs when you consider the beer you are comparing your homebrew to: how much did it cost to drive to the store? How much time did you spend procuring the beer and what is that time worth? Is that time also worth half of your regular hourly salary? Do we factor in car maintenance involved with the miles driven? My point is not that we should consider these costs, but that it would be an pointless comparison unless you left your house with the only goal being to pick up beer and headed to the store, spent time there, then headed straight home.

So I believe the labor cost in a non-factor unless you are actually foregoing pay to spend time brewing instead. Otherwise, the labor is a factor to consider when deciding if it is personally worth the effort to save the money, but not as an actual cost.

Think of clipping coupons. You might say "Is it worth my time to grab a flyer and clip coupons that will save me $5?", but you don't say "How much money does the amount of time cost to me to seek out coupons that may only save me $5?"

"Time is money" is a nice saying, with further clarification that's all it is, a nice saying.

don't forget to adjust for inflation, interest compounded quarterly, and the currency markets. if i buy my ingredients with Federal Reserve notes i received today from selling gold i bought 2 years ago at $850/oz, currently at $1,500/oz, my Federal Reserve notes now have over 70% more buying power. WINNING!

 

[Bobby_M]

Also, for those that insist that time spent is only a real cost when you have an alternative means of earning money (I don't agree but I'll concede for this point), why can't you earn money during that time? It's not that you can't but rather you value the leisure time spent brewing and would rather not give it up to earn money.

What I always get out of these threads is that the question is never literally "can you save money on beer by brewing" even if it's stated that way in the title or first post. In the context of asking that question in this community, it is immediately considered with the bias of homebrewing a hobby and therefore the pure economics problem is never addressed from an outsider's perspective. I find it common that the general public will always ask how much homebrewing costs when they find out you brew. While they are thinking of it as a "cheaper way to get beer" question, we always answer with homebrew hobby bias. I'm ok with that but I don't think people are acknowledging the bias in these threads.

What if that question was asked in a college economics class and the professor didn't share your love of homebrewing? Do you think under labor costs, an answer like "eh, nevermind this, it's a really fun hobby" would cut it?

Homebrew Hobby Bias: The phenomena that occurs when an obsessed homebrewer cannot conceive of the act of brewing as being a labor cost when considering the question "is homebrewing a cheaper way to get beer?"

 

[Airborneguy]

Since the point is being missed (again due to hobby bias),

Thank you for marginalizing my justification, which I considering very well thought out. Just please go back and notice that I haven't done the same to your argument at all.

answer the question about why you don't walk to work. (and if you do actually walk to work or work from home, commenting as such is douchy).

I don't walk to work because of the amount of time it would take me to do it relative to the amount of money I spend driving there and getting there quicker. But in the amount of time saved, I am not making money. I'm either sleeping (before work), or relaxing or maybe even brewing (after work). I would not make money in that time.

I do believe though that your example expresses exactly what I said about the labor consideration in brewing: is the extra effort worth the money saved? That is a valid question in regards to deciding whether to homebrew or not. My argument is that one cannot quantify that time with a monetary value.

Opportunity cost doesn't only apply when that alternative time spent is earning actual wages.

That is a valid point, and I understand how you are applying that to say that I am ignoring the cost of my time because homebrewing is my hobby and it gives me pleasure. But I am actually overlooking it because I am assuming most of us are homebrewing during our leisure time. Unless you are foregoing a money-making proposition to have that leisure time, there is no loss to spending said leisure time brewing, farting, watching tv, or just staring at the wall.

Again, why can't you guys put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't enjoy brewing? It's a simple exercise. All you have to do is ask yourself why you don't do some other laborious activity that you already pay someone else for?

Another example, I'm sure there are some people on here that pay a landscaper to cut the grass. Why don't you cut it yourself?

I did:

Look at it this way:

The labor involved is strenuous, not everyone can physically do it, and you may even injure yourself while brewing. One must consider whether the labor involved is worth the money saved by undertaking it.

But to figure an actual cost of that labor when deciding whether money is saved, you have to assume certain factors which cannot be quantified.

I am not missing a point, I am looking at it differently from you. You time equals money, which I think cannot be valued, so therefore, cannot be worth money. My time is measured in effort, which does not have a monetary value, like your believe it does.

 

[redcoat_or_rebel]

Since the point is being missed (again due to hobby bias), answer the question about why you don't walk to work. (and if you do actually walk to work or work from home, commenting as such is douchy).

If you work say 10 miles away from home, you could walk it and save gas, potential accidents, moving violations, and even get more healthy and reduce health related cost in the future. What's the downside? You have to dedicate time and energy that are worth a lot more to you than the money than that which can be saved.

Opportunity cost doesn't only apply when that alternative time spent is earning actual wages.

Again, why can't you guys put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't enjoy brewing? It's a simple exercise. All you have to do is ask yourself why you don't do some other laborious activity that you already pay someone else for?

Another example, I'm sure there are some people on here that pay a landscaper to cut the grass. Why don't you cut it yourself?

This is a build vs. buy equation.

just because your time is valuable to you and you could be doing other things than walking to work still doesn't mean someone else is willing to pay you for your time. it rests on the opportunity to make money during the time your are brewing.

 

[Airborneguy]

Bobby, please point out a clear instance where someone stated that time didn't mean anything because they enjoy homebrewing. I believe I have been VERY VERY clear that I am not coming from that point of view. So if you are referring to me, and still feel that way, I'd like to put forth that you are missing a point, not me.

 

[bob1852]

Since I'm taking vacation from work to go to NHC, I should include those hours at my hourly rate in my homebrewing costs for this year

 

[NickN72]

I can see Bobby's point that there is an opportunity cost to the time spent brewing, however I think that insisting that the cost is monetary is wrong. I understand wanting to be able to factor the time in, but putting a monetary cost on it is like trying to measure a board with a hammer, you're using the wrong instrument.

 

[Bobby_M]

Bobby, please point out a clear instance where someone stated that time didn't mean anything because they enjoy homebrewing. I believe I have been VERY VERY clear that I am not coming from that point of view. So if you are referring to me, and still feel that way, I'd like to put forth that you are missing a point, not me.

I'm referring in general to how people react to threads/OPs asking the question about whether or not homebrewing saves money. The answer is clearly, YES, it saves money if and only if you enjoy brewing as a hobby.

The problem is, the people that ask the question have no clue if they will enjoy the hobby and neither does the person answering the question. They just assume it will be just as much fun for them as it is for us.

Specifically addressing what I think your point is (that time is worth something but exactly how much...)

I actually do think it is easy to quantify the cost of the time/effort spent brewing. I think I brought this up in a similar thread (but it's hard to keep track since they come up so often). Try this and let me know what you think:

The actual cost of your labor to brew a batch of beer for yourself is approximately the amount of money that you would accept to NOT do your very next favorite leisure activity when you already had plans to do it. Sure it's hypothetical but it's better than ignoring it as if that 6 hours had no monetary value.

The other way to look at it is how much money would you need to be paid to brew a batch for a complete stranger (assuming it was legal to do so)? Let's say your pipeline is completely full and you've done all the brewing for your own personal benefit. Would you brew a batch for tangible costs for someone off the street? If not, why not?


Aside from all that, a very direct question I'd like people to answer:
Do you believe that if someone outside of the homebrewing community asks if it's cheaper to brew your own beer than to buy the equivalent from a store that it's intellectually honest to assume they will enjoy the hobby as much as you and therefore ignore labor cost?

All I'm saying is that I don't think it is. I'd probably suggest that it's a great hobby so if you enjoy it, you can ignore how much time has to be invested. On a pure materials cost basis, it's cheaper. To skip the caveat of the perceived value of the hobby is the issue I'm arguing against.

 

[Mrclasen]

I am with Bobby on this one. I think that people would be naive to ignore the opportunity cost of time spent brewing. Everything has an opportunity cost even our leisure time.

I don't mean to bash anyone but it appears that Bobby is the only person on this thread who understands basic economics.

 

[gestyr]

I don't mean to bash anyone but it appears that Bobby is the only person on this thread who understands basic economics.

Well you inadvertently bashed me as I was the one who originally asked the question about the value of time. Now I am going to go sulk.

 

[Mrclasen]

Sorry. Now I am going to sulk because I feel bad for bashing you.

 

[bob1852]

Well you inadvertently bashed me as I was the one who originally asked the question about the value of time. Now I am going to go sulk.

Sorry. Now I am going to sulk because I feel bad for bashing you.

You two belong here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f45/what-has-happened-men-248467/

 

[gestyr]

Sorry. Now I am going to sulk because I feel bad for bashing you.

Now that is just great. Now I am going to sulk some more because I regret making you feel bad.

 

[gestyr]

You two belong here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f45/what-has-happened-men-248467/

You hurt my feelings. The sulking lamp is now lit.

 

[zman]

I get 4-5 5G batches before I need to refill my propane tank and it is $14/fill in Denver. Perhaps it is cheaper because our Governor is not using our money to fly to LL games

 

[emjay]

I look at it this way.

You tell a friend how much a batch of beer costs you. "Wow!!!" he says, "Only $5/case? Then it's no big deal if I drink as much of your beer as I want, right? I'll reimburse you if necessary."

"You're already drinking my beer."

"Yeah, but I didn't realize how cheap it was. I'm coming over every night from now on to get hammered!"

"Oh come on, that's a bit overboard..."

"It's just $5 a case, right? So what's the big deal? I'll give you $5 a night if you want... it's cheaper than a drink at the bar."

"Well, yeah, it's $5 in ingredients, but..."

And that "but" is the real cost of making homebrew.

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't know why this topic is such a hot button for me. It really doesn't matter. The next time someone asks how much homebrewing costs I'm just going to scowl and grunt under my breath.

 

[Mrclasen]

Well put emjay.

 

[Clann]

Lately, I've not been replying to 'cost of honebrewing' threads, in part because I don't want to be misconstrued or seen as denigrating brewers who take a different approach.

But here goes. For me, brewing is a very low cost craft. I haven't bought a piece of equipment in over two years. I have no latent engineering tendencies, so am not into the equipment at all. My brewing style tends towards the simple and 'handmade' approach, nothing is automated. I buy Ingredients in bulk, so even though I use organic ingredients, my ingredient costs average $15 per 5.5 gallon batch.

It is possible to enjoy this hobby and make great tasting beer at a very modest cost.

Yup, $15-$18 a 5 gal batch and I couldnt buy 1 case of bush for that.

 

[bob1852]

I don't know why this topic is such a hot button for me. It really doesn't matter. The next time someone asks how much homebrewing costs I'm just going to scowl and grunt under my breath.

See below?

Yup, $15-$18 a 5 gal batch and I couldnt buy 1 case of bush for that.

Okay, but that's not comparing apples to apples.

You are only including your ingredient costs. For you to buy a case of Busch, you're paying for marketing, canning, shipping, etc...

To compare apples to apples, compare only the cost of ingredients to make a case of Busch - and then scale it to the quantities that AB buys ingredients....

That would be closer to an apples to apples comparison.



Did I cover it Bobby?

 

[austinb]

I don't consider my time a cost because I enjoy brewing, its a hobby I do in my free time, its not a job (well it was a couple years ago when I worked at a brewery but I enjoyed that too and got cases of free beer so I didn't need to buy any).

Also equipment cost can be a factor but I bought most of my equipment years ago, its basic but it works just fine and personally I don't have any desire to upgrade it anytime soon except for maybe a couple extra carboys and maybe a larger brew pot eventually so I can start doing 10gal batches.

I guess the propane cost and sanitizer is legitimate it costs about $7 to fill up the tank and I get about 10 or 12 brews out of it and I use iodine because its cheaper than star-san and it works just fine and a $16 bottle of iodine will last me about 20 brews so I guess I could add $1-$2 to the total cost and it still comes out to under $2 a 6-pack which is about 1/4 the cost of commercial brew.

I'd say that unless you are constantly upgrading your equipment it will save you money in the long run. After the initial equipment investment (which can be pretty reasonable with a combination of craigslist and DIY projects) if you buy ingredients in bulk the savings can be pretty significant.

 

[Clann]

See below?



Okay, but that's not comparing apples to apples.

You are only including your ingredient costs. For you to buy a case of Busch, you're paying for marketing, canning, shipping, etc...

To compare apples to apples, compare only the cost of ingredients to make a case of Busch - and then scale it to the quantities that AB buys ingredients....

That would be closer to an apples to apples comparison.



Did I cover it Bobby?

Well thats not really apples to apples either.

I dont have to pay for marketing etc. I just have to buy my ingredients and make my beer then drink it. so I can either pay for all that marketing, canning, shipping or I can make 2 cases of beer that you will pay $9 a six pack for that I will enjoy or I can pay $18 for a case of beer that will do the job.

So if you are not saving money there is something wrong

 

[austinb]

I don't really agree with the idea that from an economics standpoint you have to include your time as a cost. First of all that argument seems to be based on the idea that you could be working more hours at your job instead but not everyone's job would give them more hours if they asked for it . Therefore the time spent brewing is not necessarily time that could be spent getting paid at your job so spending your time brewing isn't really a cost if you wouldn't be earning money during that time anyway. Time is not always money earned also, some people actually pay money to spend their time on vacation volunteering in foreign countries, they actually pay more to work on their vacation than someone who just goes to some place to relax. Anyway I feel that if you would do it for free (and us homebrewers do exactly that because we don't get paid to brew our own) then you can't really consider your time as a cost.