Hombrewers CSA?

[Phunhog]

So I found this...http://brewlabsf.com/
It is a homebrewers CSA (Community Supported Agriculture). Essentially you become a member and you get 1-2 six packs every 4-6 weeks. It seems like a great way to get people to try your beers as well as trying other homebrewer's beers. As far as legalites?? They do "ask" for donations to cover beer costs.

 

[unionrdr]

From a legal standpoint,donations are considered the same as paying for it in many states.

 

[PurpleJeepXJ]

Yep... you can't donate to a hooker's 'community college fund'

 

[Phunhog]

I agree the "donation" aspect would make it a bit questionable. We already participate in a community "produce exchange" where everybody brings the extras from their gardens and we share. I have started to bring beer and it is pretty popular. It seems like it would be even more popular if we had several homebrewers sharing their extra beer. It will be interesting to see how the group in SF evolves. I think it will be a good test case to see how much the local police/ABC/TTB really care and if they get involved.

 

[Airborneguy]

Why would they ask for money? Sounds fishy to me. I brew a batch, give you 6 bottles. You brew a batch, give me 6 bottles. Seems like a zero-loss scenario, with no good reason to risk asking for money.

 

[PurpleJeepXJ]

Because now days people try to make money off anything.

 

[olllllo]

Brian Yaegar of All About Beer offers some reasons why this is a bad idea. Comments also by yours truly: http://beerodyssey.blogspot.com/2011/08/homebrew-csa-2-3-pro-20-30-cons.html

 

[Phunhog]

That is what I am not sure about....is this a business or just a way to distribute homebrew? I am a member of a produce co-op where we trade backyard veggies and fruits a few times a month. We don't pay a dime for anything. It is strictly bring what you can/take what you want. Last month I brought homebrew....of course it was a hit. I thought maybe this was similar.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I think it would be a good idea for homebrewers to donate brews and then get the same number of brews back from various other brewers. That would be a nice way for everybody to get to know each other's brews, and I think it would be perfectly legal.

 

[certaut]

I think it would be a good idea for homebrewers to donate brews and then get the same number of brews back from various other brewers. That would be a nice way for everybody to get to know each other's brews, and I think it would be perfectly legal.

I love it a place where you can post brews to trade and pick brews you want
recipient pays shipping and cannot fall then less than 90% payback.
I got a server here that is off line and would put it back online for this
respond to this thread and it WILL happen (or pm me)
pete

 

[ETOHonboard]

I think the donations may be used to cover the events they say they hold. Otherwise it does say no money is necessary so that may cover the legal aspect of it. Of course I am no lawyer, just a shot in the dark

 

[iandh]

I think its a great idea, but I have been hesitate to join because of the legal issues. I think the group gives homebrewers a set amount to cover ingredient costs (my memory is hazy but I think it was close to $40 for a 5 gallon batch).

Should the group get in trouble, I imagine they hope for only a slap on the wrist. I think the TTB punishment would be severe though. Should I want to start a brewery in the future, I would hate to try and explain this offense when submitting my application.

I would much rather just give beer away for free and pay for the ingredients myself.

 

[Phunhog]

I just wonder who the TTB/ABC would go after? The organizers, the brewers, the subscribers(drinkers)? It just seems like something so small that the government wouldn't bother to spend precious resources(money) on. Maybe that is what they are hoping for? What's that old saying...."better to beg forgiveness than ask permission"

 

[Airborneguy]

The organizers are the ones who are profiting off of it.

 

[simtel20]

Instead of a CSB (community-sourced-brewing?) are there any places where there is CSA-sourced malt and hops that you can subscribe to during the year in homebrew-scale lots (e.g. maybe 10-20 lb of base malts/week)?

 

[Airborneguy]

There is one for grain, but it's slipping my mind right now. I didn't think it was worth it. A "share" costs $200 and you still buy the grains they send you, which only come once a month anyway.

 

[qbst]

Why this might be a problem (from their brewers page):

When you brew with us, you brew for free. Just tell us the recipe you’re going to use, and we’ll buy the ingredients for you.

Gain an audience and get feedback. We ask for 40 12-ounce bottles from any 5 gallon batch you contribute, leaving you with about 10 bottles for personal use. Those 40 beers will be distributed to other Brewlab members, who will rate and comment on the beers they drink.

A regulatory entity might view this as the brewer selling beer to Brewlab. They give the brewer ingredients, the brewer give them beer. Depending on the definition of "Sell" or "Sale" in a state, this could count.



And why it might be a problem (from the FAQ page):

And this beer is free??

Yep! We're not in the business of selling beer. Two things about that though:

We can only cover the costs of brewing and running the organization with the help of membership donation, and so each batch we ask our members to consider donating to the cause.

The "donations" might be viewed as highly suspect by a regulatory body as well. If at any time I were to give them a donation in return for the beer they supply me, a regulatory body might view such as engaging in a sale. Again, depending on the rules and statutes in the state in question.

I know bupkis about CA law, so can't comment on the legality of the venture in CA. But if I were in CA and considering joining this group as a brewer or consumer, I'd at the very least check the language of the statutes for the definition of selling. I might consider talking to a CA attorney about it, too.

But I'm not, so all of the forgoing is just speculation, not legal advice.

----
I'm very curious if we have any CA attorneys who might be able to provide insight into this matter.

 

[Phunhog]

Well I for one hope they do well!! No doubt they are pushing the legal envelope but....that is how things get done. If several of these started to pop up it would be in the state's interest (cost less) to somehow legally define them rather than to attempt to prosecute. I think the fine is somewhere around 1K however attempted prosecution would cost much more.

 

[Homercidal]

Well I for one hope they do well!! No doubt they are pushing the legal envelope but....that is how things get done. If several of these started to pop up it would be in the state's interest (cost less) to somehow legally define them rather than to attempt to prosecute. I think the fine is somewhere around 1K however attempted prosecution would cost much more.

I'm sure the licensed brewers who lobby for their own interests would have a say. We don't live in a vacuum. All the favor this would gain would be offset by the larger industry who PAID to supply people with beer. I'm sure they would remind those in charge who got them there (or who can get them there again next election.)

 

[unionrdr]

After due consideration,I have to say this smacks of the old pyramid scheme. Only the top dogs make out. Give up 40 bottles out of a average 48 bottle batch? I only get an 8 pack for all the work & utilities used on my end?
They apparently don't consider that you have to put in the time,water,gas,electricity to brew it. Not to mention,depreciation on your equipment brewing/fermenting/bottling it. Ink & paper for making labels.
No thanks. You wanna get rich,find another sucker...

 

[Phunhog]

After due consideration,I have to say this smacks of the old pyramid scheme. Only the top dogs make out. Give up 40 bottles out of a average 48 bottle batch? I only get an 8 pack for all the work & utilities used on my end?
They apparently don't consider that you have to put in the time,water,gas,electricity to brew it. Not to mention,depreciation on your equipment brewing/fermenting/bottling it. Ink & paper for making labels.
No thanks. You wanna get rich,find another sucker...

I think the brewers actually get money back for supplies for another batch, in addition to other homebrewers beer. I agree if someone is trying to make money distributing home brew than it is most likely illegal. I

 

[unionrdr]

Seems to me he said they ship you grains,& that's it. Some home brew would be nice. But not being on the top of the pyramid is not a good place to be.

 

[Phunhog]

Seems like it is still going strong. They aren't exactly under the radar. http://www.sfweekly.com/slideshow/handmade-brewlab-36307673/#1

 

[StMarcos]

I might participate if I could know the ingredients, temp, pitching rates etc of the beers you get back. But really, you contribute 40 beers and get back 6. So is it worth the time, effort, and utilities of a 5G batch to keep 16 or so beers?

 

[Phunhog]

I don't think it is so much for homebrewers to get beer back but rather for the the non homebrewers to get beer. It sounds like the homebrewers are compensated via donations for grain, yeast, hops, etc....