Hombrew twang

[p_p]

Hi everybody,
I am an all grain brewer. I have completed 7 brews in total.
The beer is turning out good and I am getting good feedback from the people I have shared with (including a few self-proclaimed connoisseurs).

Nobody seems to notice, but I get a bit of a home-brew twang which I don't get in commercial craft beer. This is upsetting me.

I wonder if you could through some ideas on what this could be? Bear in mind that this is something very subtle and so far nobody has pointed it out to me (none of my friends homebrew)

My money is on filter vs. not filtered beer, even though I still get it in clear beer that has sit in the bottle for several weeks and had time to drop.

any help would be appreciated.
p_p

 

[drewmarkwith]

What kind of beers are you brewing? I brew pale ales and IPA's and my beer had a twang until I switched to kegging and had less oxygenation.

 

[p_p]

What kind of beers are you brewing? I brew pale ales and IPA's and my beer had a twang until I switched to kegging and had less oxygenation.

I am brewing mostly pale ales and stouts, below 1.060.
I bottle directly from primary and the beer does not see any oxygen up to the point where I bottle using a wand (priming using carbonation drops).

Are you saying that this may be an oxidation issue or a bottle conditioning issue?

thanks

 

[kh54s10]

I don't know if it is the yeast. Try using a bottling bucket and priming sugar solution. That way you will be getting less of the yeast from the bottom of the fermenter.
How long are you bottle conditioning? Waiting longer will allow more yeast to compact in the bottom of the bottles and be more solid so less gets poured into the glass.

Buy one of the unfiltered commercial beers, if you get the same twang it is likely that you are sensitive to the yeast.

Or maybe you are just tasting better beer. I like the taste of my homebrew more than most commercial beers. I do not buy the ones that cost $10 a bomber though.

 

[WrQth]

Oxidation does not give a twang flavor rather more of a cardboard flavor, "Homebrew Twang" is typically more associated with malt extract (DME or LME). The twang could be from underpitching resulting in more esters from the yeast but there could be many other things as well.

In the event someone says it's the carb drops, it's not. I've used them many times with success and only once do I think they were the problem when a low ABV brew didn't carb.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

chlorine can be the culprit, use campden tablets

 

[poptarts]

water chem / ferm temps / bad process in general / poor sanitization all can lead to consistent off flavors batch to batch. My vote is you have harder water and are not doing anything about it but we need more info to help boss.

 

[gometz]

My guess would be a combination of chlorine in the water, extract (for non all grain brewers), oxygenation, and under attenuation. I just got a bottle from a neighbor who wanted me to try his homebrew, and it'd been a while since I remember making beer like that.
I would recommend using different water or campden tablets, using yeast starters, and being careful when transferring to avoid the "tang".

 

[m00ps]

definitely not a filtering issue. Thousands of homebrewers dont filter their beers and do not have this issue

I agree that it is likely a water chemistry issue. That, or yeast stress. But if you are doing extract, I have heard of a number of brewers refer to some sort of "extract twang"

 

[p_p]

I may be imagining this "tang" thing since nobody seems to get it. I shall try getting expert opinion.

Here are more details on my process:

I do keep an eye in my water, living in the London area I kind of have no choice.
I test total hardness, alkalinity and Ca (and Mg) before each brew. Other ions I take from the yearly report.
For pales I dilute using (very soft) bottled water. I adjust strike water using phosphoric and salts. I estimate pH (and also measure it using a cheap meter). I acidify the sparge water. I remove chlorine using campdem, dousing + smelling as recommended in this forum (brew science section).

I brew indoors, there are no drafts, no air moving and I suit up like professor White to minimize the chances of anything getting in the beer after I start cooling.
I aerate using an aquarium pump + filter + stone and tend to always over-pitch slightly.
I pitch my whole starter, do not decant and I may be using old DME to make the starter in the first place, oops. (I never tasted the starter)

I have temp control. I always start low, let it ramp up during the first hours, hold it there and then let it go a bit higher towards the end.
For example, I may start 17C let it rise 19C in 48 hs. hold there and then ramp to 20C towards the end to make sure the yeast cleans up.

So far I have only used these yeasts, 05, wlp007 and wlp004. There is usually plenty of Ca in my water, yeast always flocs quite nicely.
I ferment in a plastic bucket which is not scratched and is cleaned well and soaked in star-san prior pitching.

Unless I am dry-hopping, the bucket is not opened until the beer has been packaged.
The time from pitching to bottling varies, but never goes above 2 1/2 weeks.

The bucket is placed inclined during fermentation, the yeast collects on the opposite side to where the spigot is.
I cannot say there is yeast going into the bottles, the tap sits quite high in bucket.

Bottle condition for 2-3 weeks before I start drinking. Stouts seem to peak at 8 weeks after brew days, 6 weeks for pale ales seems to be right.

My next brew is a double IPA with lots of hops (which I will ferment using 05, so no starter).
If there is anything obvious that pops up in the process, I welcome advice.

Thanks again
p_p

 

[urg8rb8]

What water do you use? I would try a batch with RO water and salts to see if it goes away.

 

[p_p]

I see that most of you point to the water.
What exactly in the water could cause this?

 

[drewmarkwith]

I would recommend trying a bottle every 3 days from date of bottling to see if the twang is there from the beginning or develops over time. If that taste gets more prominent day 9 and later, but wasn't there at day 3 and 6, then could be oxygen pick up from the bottling wand which can have turbulent flow. I never had cardboard flavor from my oxygenated beers.

 

[gometz]

One thing o am not seeing in your process is a starter. Do you use starters? You may be stressing the yeast.

 

[p_p]

One thing o am not seeing in your process is a starter. Do you use starters? You may be stressing the yeast.

Yes, I make starters when using liquid yeast. I tend to over-pitch slightly and pitch the whole starter, not just the slurry at the bottom. I use a stir plate and spin it for 18-30hs, depending on how much time I have.

The thing I kind of notice while reflecting on my process is that I may be using old DME to make the starter in the first place. The starter usually equates to 5-10% of the total volume of beer, so it may carry off flavours! I need to check

 

[CUrchin]

Traditionally "twang" is a malt extract thing, but it may be another off flavor that comes off as a twang-

-Could the Twang be astringency (bitterish/puckery)- That could be a ph issue.

-Chlorine could also be issue, that would be more band-aid ish-

-DMS could be a culprit- Vegetative taste, pretty common, can be subtle (boil more).

-Banana/fruity- ferment temp to high.

More reading here: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors

If you can't debug it yourself, you should find someone with a palette to help you track down what is going on. In the end, ingredients (water, malt, hops, yeast), process, sanitation, packaging are the places to look.

 

[p_p]

One more thing has occurred to me.

In the the beers with the "twang" have one thing in common, I've used Golden Promise as my base.
Could it be that I am just not used to this malt's flavour?

As a fairly new brewer, I lack experience with flavour and ingredients.

 

[p_p]

-DMS could be a culprit- Vegetative taste, pretty common, can be subtle (boil more).

Do you need a vigorous boil to get rid of DMS?
My boil is feeble.

I boil for 60 min and evaporate about 12% in that time.

 

[poptarts]

are you bottling with a proper bottling wand to minimize O2 pickup?

 

[rhys333]

One more thing has occurred to me.

In the the beers with the "twang" have one thing in common, I've used Golden Promise as my base.
Could it be that I am just not used to this malt's flavour?

As a fairly new brewer, I lack experience with flavour and ingredients.

Can you describe this twang for us? As per the abive post, astringency bitterness/dryness is linked to high pH. Medicinal is chlorine/chloramine. Metallic could be from your system or iron in water. You singled out the DMS cooked corn off flavor... are you thinking this is the flavor twang you're picking up?

If its none of the above, it could be a mild infection thats transferring from batch to batch. Replacing transfer tubing every few months can resolve this.

 

[p_p]

are you bottling with a proper bottling wand to minimize O2 pickup?

One of those that have a spring loaded valve that opens when you press the bottle against it. I try doing it as gently as possible. Don't have like a beer gun or any means to flush the bottles with CO2

 

[p_p]

Thank you everybody for your input and for helping with the troubleshooting.
I have a few things I can look into.

 

[gometz]

Yes, I make starters when using liquid yeast. I tend to over-pitch slightly and pitch the whole starter, not just the slurry at the bottom. I use a stir plate and spin it for 18-30hs, depending on how much time I have.

The thing I kind of notice while reflecting on my process is that I may be using old DME to make the starter in the first place. The starter usually equates to 5-10% of the total volume of beer, so it may carry off flavours! I need to check

That amount of DME shouldn't cause off flavors normally. But maybe try decanting the starter. Make sure you do your starters days in advance and calculate the correct pitch rate. Just making a starter from an old package maybe still be under pitching. I've gotten packages that were only 20% viable when I needed 300B cells (big starter or multiple steps).

 

[ericbw]

Surprisingly, no one asked what you're brewing or what yeast.

Twang is not very descriptive, but is it the same each time?

 

[p_p]

That amount of DME shouldn't cause off flavors normally. But maybe try decanting the starter. Make sure you do your starters days in advance and calculate the correct pitch rate. Just making a starter from an old package maybe still be under pitching. I've gotten packages that were only 20% viable when I needed 300B cells (big starter or multiple steps).

I will decant the starter next time round (although will surely use a fresh bag of DME!).

I trust my supplier stores the yeast properly and the orders get picked up from the store. I can only go by the yeast date to decide how viable the pack is and use a calculator to estimate how big the starter ought to be (either Jamil's or Brewers friend).

Cheers for the advice

 

[p_p]

Surprisingly, no one asked what you're brewing or what yeast.

Twang is not very descriptive, but is it the same each time?

Probably lost in my long post, but I wrote I brew pale ales & dark ales only, below 1.060. I've used 05, WLP007 and WLP004 only.

I really don't know how to describe it. I wish I could. It is the same each time. Like a sweetish smell and usually perceived on the back of the nose after you drank a sip (I cannot taste on the palate). The beers are well attenuated, all of them have started at around 1.050-1.055 and end up between 1.007 and 1.011.

In the process of doing the write up, I kind of realize that I have got this flavour in the three beers I brew using Golden Promise and have not noticed on other beers. Maybe it is just the way Golden Promise comes across ...

Maybe I am just imagining things and wasting everybody's time. I am yet to find someone who agrees with me on this flavour and I am slowly recognizing that I seem to be on a quest to find off-flavours on my own beer.

thanks again for the help.

 

[rmarshall100]

A couple of strategies for you... take it to a local homebrew club meeting and ask for honest feedback. There is usually at least one person there who will tell you more than you wanted to know. The better alternative, however, might be to enter a suspect beer in a competition. Three trained palettes will now be focused on your beer. They'll get to the bottom of it. Literally and figuratively.

 

[p_p]

A couple of strategies for you... take it to a local homebrew club meeting and ask for honest feedback. There is usually at least one person there who will tell you more than you wanted to know. The better alternative, however, might be to enter a suspect beer in a competition. Three trained palettes will now be focused on your beer. They'll get to the bottom of it. Literally and figuratively.

Believe me, those things have crossed my mind... I am yet to find a home-brew-club that doesn't require me to travel long distances. There isn't anything local unfortunately.

I did a quick search for competitions and found that the UK National Homebrew Competition (September) had already reached its entry limit :/

I'll send an email, maybe they can point me to the right direction where to find more competitions

http://www.nationalhomebrewcompetition.org.uk/

thanks!