HOA and Home Brewing Question

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we're in Sterling Park/Church Mills, and do have Church Mills Homeowners Association

our houses are side-by-side duplexes with fairly decent-sized yards.

we paid $180k 5 years ago. VA loan helped a lot, no down payment. would be a little more expensive now, but interest rates are lower.

We like Kettles & Grains, nice place and George is cool.

have a new place coming in June, in Landsdowne called Brew LoCo. it's going in that fake Mayberry Main St off of Route 7. on the right when you're heading towards Leesburg. there's a lake with 3 big water fountains
 
One more thing occurred to me: HOAs can change their rules. That is, if you get into one that allows outdoor homebrewing, if some busybodies get their undies in a bunch over your brewing, they can vote to change the rules to ban it.
 
I live in Fairfax county and my HOA says i cant use propane gas outside (Charcoal is ok for smoking and grilling though) and i cant store propane tanks in my garage.

I have a propane tank in my garage and i brew beer with it on the driveway. i've never had anyone say a thing to me. the neighbors that see what i'm doing don't even ask what it is that i'm doing.

Basically i'm saying don't worry to much about HOAs.
 
GrogNerd said:
we're in Sterling Park/Church Mills, and do have Church Mills Homeowners Association

our houses are side-by-side duplexes with fairly decent-sized yards.

we paid $180k 5 years ago. VA loan helped a lot, no down payment. would be a little more expensive now, but interest rates are lower.

We like Kettles & Grains, nice place and George is cool.

have a new place coming in June, in Landsdowne called Brew LoCo. it's going in that fake Mayberry Main St off of Route 7. on the right when you're heading towards Leesburg. there's a lake with 3 big water fountains
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Our realtor has mentioned Church Mills several times. He has some listings we are going to look at once my GF and I can find time to meet with him again. We're looking in the 250ish range in a decent neighborhood. At that cost, we will pay much less than my rent in Ashburn and her rent in Alexandria.
George and Dawn are awesome. I sometimes show up there when I am bored, and usually leave with a few of their latest craft brews. Funny story, we looked at place right next to K&G. I could walk there almost. I'm trying to get the GF to agree to it ;-).
 
we looked at that area too. some duplexes right across the street.

can't say enough good about our neighborhood here. a couple years ago, on Memorial Day weekend, we went down to my dad's house in Williamsburg.

left friday, came home monday and noticed, the front door was WIDE FREAKING OPEN. storm door was closed, but the main door was wide open.

started to freak out, but when we saw that my guitar in its gig bag was still standing in the foyer, we figured no one had come in

granted, our door doesn't directly face the street, if it did, maybe someone would have broken in.
 
In most states Declarations of Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions (Deed Restrictions) are construed to be contracts. You are deemed as an individual to have entered into the contract with all others subject to the declaration simply by taking title. In most states, again, there are few limits put on contracts. Courts don't limit the ability to enter into stupid or ill-advised contracts. If two neighbors contract that they won't do the backstroke in their swimming pools on Tuesdays after two, the courts don't care if the provision makes sense, it's enforceable and the parties had the right to enter into that contract and should be bound by it. So, look at your deed restrictions before signing up (buying) like any other contract. They are all different. And, yes, they can be amended. Sometimes alarmingly easily. Also, it's usually not ONLY the board or the association that can enforce the deed restrictions. If the declaration prohibits you from using propane but the board looks the other way I, your neighbor, can enforce the contract and take you to court. Final note even if your declaration has no specific provision prohibiting, a board may invoke the ubiquitous and vague language prohibiting "nuisance, hazardous or obnoxious" activities, where the board is given full discretion to determine whether the activities are "nuisance, hazardous or obnoxious". All of that said, as a real estate developer I've prepared and recorded deed restrictions, run associations and enforced deed restrictions in multiple communities every year for the last 30 years. I have never encountered an issue with home brewing OR the use of propane. I live in a deed restricted community (and serve as president of that HOA) and have never heard a squeak about my brewing. I wish I could say the same about my bees.
 
Having a condo and the rules thereof is IMO close enough to HOA to chime in. I had a short opportunity to skim over the condo rules before committing to purchase. This gave me the chance to see what they were about, allowed, not allowed, etc. The vast majority of them are to maintain the peace and ensure building safety. Only thing I'd like to change is barbecues on the balcony, but I do see how people a few doors down (or up) may not want the delicious smell of smoky meat in their units - possibly because they're weirdos. Likely more of a fire concern than anything else. Incidentally they didn't make any mention of a forge, so my folded steel projects may be able to take place!

As far as brewing goes I have been spotted with a 55 lb bag of barley more than once and nobody has asked any questions, everyone in the building seems fairly easy going and trouble free. After I started into extract brewing I even looked over the rules again to make sure the fabrication of alcohol was permitted. Or to be more accurate to ensure the fabrication of alcohol wasn't not permitted as is the case with these types of documents.

Essentially: If you have to go to an HOA area, get a look at the rules and regs before committing to anything. Check in with a couple random people to see what they're like, if they are easy going people leading a simple life, or if they live and die by the rules and regs.
 
HOA's are terrible. I would live in a cardboard box under a bridge before I bought a house with any type of HOA.

All it takes is one bad neighbor with nothing better to do to make your life miserable trying to twist every little petty rule to the extreme. You might be fine for awhile, but you get a new neighbor who is against alcohol and they will put up a stink and make life tough for everyone, because once they start enforcing the rules on someone they have to do it to the rest.

you know that propane tank might not be singled out, but the "potentially explosive material" clause will get you. Or your local homebrew sticker on your car makes it a commercial vehicle and you can't have that. Heck they may even try and say homebrewing is industrial manufacturing to make life miserable. In the end they won't win but it will give you heartburn over it and they will just find something else to nit pick about.

The fact that they can pretty much change the rules on the fly without most people knowing is enough for me to never even consider it. How many people you think show up at the HOA meeting in the middle of the day to vote on rules and changes????? AND YOU HAVE TO PAY THEM to tell you how to live your life NO WAY.

HOA's are a good concept, but they got too restrictive and go way beyond their mission to keep up property values. Seriously who isn't going to buy a house because the neighbors have red curtains, instead of white?? Or because the contractor parks his trailer in the driveway of his house overnight? HOA's should be limited only to be able to enforce whatever local laws are already on the books so they remove the burden from the town/city.

If you have amenities that the HOA pays for you should be able to opt out of usage of those amenities and let the people who utilize them pay the full share, if the cost is too much because not enough people use them then its time to do away with that amenity.

Maybe in townhouses and condo's where people share walls and roofs there should be a HOA to make sure those things are kept in good order, but that is the only purpose.

Sorry for the HOA rant, I just seen too many problems with him in my life. Way more evil than good in most cases.
 
Agree. ^^ 100%.

Picture the most obnoxious, dips**t, meddling, incompetent, brownnosing co-worker you've ever had. Now picture that person in a position to influence what you do at home - to compel you to do what he/she wants and to refrain from doing what he/she does not want. That's the potential under the HOA. Screw that.
 
Like many, I have a love/hate relationship with my HOA. They tried to fine me last year for parking my camper in front of the house one night before a camping trip, yet a neighbor on the next street had a camper parked in front of his house for over a week (I'd assume he got a nasty-gram too but can't confirm). I now have to email a lady to tell her that I am going to have my camper in front of the house whenever I am preparing for a camping trip or cleaning up afterward.

One of my neighbors has wood on his gate to the backyard, which looks really nice. My other neighbor put the same wood on his gate and got a letter from the HOA telling him to remove it or a lien would be placed against his property. The first neighbor was "grandfathered" in because he had done it a couple years ago. For some reason, it's better to see people's weed-filled backyards than a wood-covered gate.

I'm going to go look at my covenants to see if there is mention of homebrewing. I certainly wouldn't be surprised. The neighborhood looks pretty nice, but it is certainly a sacrifice of freedom.

On a similar note, I have a friend that moved into a house in Gun Barrel, Colorado. He told me that the new neighborhood is nice except they have a covenant against homebrewing.
 
I guess it depends on your particular personal barometer/Libertarian bent/whatever, etc.

If a neighbor complained about something out of place for one night, or about something that was consistent with what the neighbor did, but for some arbitrary reason ticked off another neighbor, I would absolutely go out of my cotton-pickin' mind. I have absolutely no patience for that kind of stuff. Others do. Diff'rent strokes.
 
I am lucky enough to be in a 30+ year old neighborhood that has no HOA. Basically look in the provisions for anything about outdoor cooking or anything involving (open) flame outdoors if you are thinking of going the burner route. Also look into provisions about nusiance behavior including smells as they can be used to rationalize over what you can cook inside your house.

Condos/Townhomes/places with HOA's you really should calculate the fees and add them per year to the cost of buying and then compare those rates (30 years worth? to match your mortgage) to how much you could afford on a non HOA place. Ask your real estate person about established neighborhoods without HOA's. You would be amazed what you can afford, though saving up 10-20% for a down payment is best.

HOA's are a great idea, though they do seem to like to make life complicated on you and cost you money in the long run. The one the next block over from my place requires the split wood shingles which not only are expensive, but age poorly and need replacement every 5 years. I have the some 15 yer shingles on mine which have at least 5 more years left in them. Consider your options, older houses may need some work, but usually are free from the meddling groups and if you are handy and motivated can save you money in the long run.

Just a thought.
 
I'm just glad all of my neighbors are really good about minding their own damn business.

But then again, my neighborhood is strictly rental properties, so it's not like anyone is worried about property value.
 
I couldn't imagine living in something like that. Other adults telling you how to live. I'd rather live in a god damn tent.
 
You are hereby notified to remove said tent forthwith, or a lien shall be placed upon your tent.
 
Flipadelphia said:
I couldn't imagine living in something like that. Other adults telling you how to live. I'd rather live in a god damn tent.
Click to expand...
Sadly there are some who do need to be told how to live. As a professional driver, I occasionally need to remind people that they're safer using a crosswalk. Or that "Running that red light on your bicycle and driving it underneath my truck may be harmful to your health." Key is going to a like minded community where the rules are in tune with your own style.
DrunkleJon said:
You can't. Pitching a tent in your own yard is banned per HOA rulebook in paragraph 14 section b lines 12-18.
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Pitch it in someone elses yard?
 
Zepth said:
Key is going to a like minded community where the rules are in tune with your own style.
Click to expand...

It's just my personal opinion, but I'll never live anywhere where there are rules (besides local/federal) that I have to abide by. I don't want to derail this thread, but that subject just makes me shake my head. People that don't pay for your property, asking you to pay a fee so that you can be told how to live. That's freedom right there.
 
Bear in mind that deed restrictions aren't imposed on anyone. People freely CHOOSE deed restricted communities for the benefits they deliver, and, for those of us who so choose, those benefits are sufficient. As to those who are unfortunate enough to have bought in a deed restricted community without reading and understanding the deed restrictions, caveat emptor. They're on the public records and listed on your title insurance policy.
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
HOA's are absurd. You will have to read the covenant and restriction of the particular HOA to know whether or not HB is allowed. I have heard of some who restrict the use of smokers and grills.
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I detest HOA's!!! Cannot stress it enough, I hate any entity that tries to dictate what I can or can't do with MY property. That being said, do what you need to and brew indoors! Nobody can get on you about that!

I brew indoors despite being able to do it outdoors. I find it more convenient also... Just my 2 cents.


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JonM said:
One more thing occurred to me: HOAs can change their rules. That is, if you get into one that allows outdoor homebrewing, if some busybodies get their undies in a bunch over your brewing, they can vote to change the rules to ban it.
Click to expand...

This is why God gave us Baseball Bats : )
 
As a HOA board member in NoVA area there are 4 things that you should read and familiarize yourself with when buying a property in a HOA. The first is the Covenants these are the restrictions that are registered with your Deed and the contract that you abide by. The Covenants list how the HOA is to structured and some restrictions and were usually created by the developer and some of the first property owners in the development and can be very hard to change requiring a super majority (3/4's or 2/3's) of property owners to agree to the new Covenants. We have silly items in our Covenants like how to hang your laundry and the maximum sign size in your yard 1 sq foot.

Next is the By-Laws. The By-Laws set up the Board and describe how to elect and remove board members, types of standing committees, how to run meetings, duties of the board members, what happens if you do not pay your assessment or violate one of the regulations. The By-laws can usually be amended by a quorum at the annual meeting of the HOA.

The next are are the policies and regulations of the HOA these are the rules to that hopefully allow us to get allowing with our neighbors. Parking restrictions, Architectural guidelines, use of common areas, yard and grass policies, trash policies and other general regulation. These are amendable, after publication and comment by property owners of the HOA, by a board vote.

When you are thinking buying in an area see if the HOA has a web site and download these documents and read them carefully. Once you put in an offer you will still be required to get a disclosure packet from the HOA.

The last thing you should read is the Virginia Property Owners' Association Act found here or if a condo here for the Condominium Act. These laws restrict what the HOA or Condo Associations are allowed to do.

Lastly once you find your dream home get involved with HOA show up at the meetings, volunteer for a committee, join the board. It keeps you in the know and can help with misunderstandings with your neighbors.
 
Aargh! Camper in your own driveway, cooking odors, paint colors, fence materials...I'm very happy to have my own short dead-end street with wooded area on three sides.

It never even occurs to me that there would be rules against whatever I want to do with my property. Yard waste-into the woods! Gas grill, smoker, wok, fire pit! Vegetable garden! Campers-two 30'ers in the side yard along with a big excavator! Horseshoe pit? As soon as the excavator is gone! ;)

Okay, I've made it sound like my yard is a mess, but everyone at my cookout yesterday said it looked very nice.
 
I live in NoVa as well and my hoa is a bunch of nazis.... I pay them their outrageous dues, I keep my grass cut, my weeds pulled, my trim painted, my deck stained, my sidewalks edged, my lamp post lit, my hose wrapped up, my gutters cleaned, etc, etc... I don't give a damn about what their rules are about grilling and brewing. I grill on my deck and brew in my garage when I want to, end of story. I had my smoker going at 11 pm the other night. The whole block smelled like sweet hickory bbq!
Hoa's suck though. I have my house on the market and half of the reason is because of the hoa. The community has changed management companies at least 3 times in the 3 years I've lived there. Even they can't stand them... If I were you I'd just do what you want until they tell you otherwise.
 
bobeer said:
I live in NoVa as well and my hoa is a bunch of nazis.... I pay them their outrageous dues, I keep my grass cut, my weeds pulled, my trim painted, my deck stained, my sidewalks edged, my lamp post lit, my hose wrapped up, my gutters cleaned, etc, etc... I don't give a damn about what their rules are about grilling and brewing. I grill on my deck and brew in my garage when I want to, end of story. I had my smoker going at 11 pm the other night. The whole block smelled like sweet hickory bbq!

Hoa's suck though. I have my house on the market and half of the reason is because of the hoa. The community has changed management companies at least 3 times in the 3 years I've lived there. Even they can't stand them... If I were you I'd just do what you want until they tell you otherwise.
Click to expand...


I can sum up your entire post with one word. "Murca"




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_____________________________
I once dated a girl who told me I will not drink beer in front of our children. I dumped her the next day.
 
Why not raise the motion to dismiss the HOA entirely? Obviously with 3 failures over as many years it just isn't working.
 
I live in a HOA / deed restricted community. The first time I hauled out my brewing gear, some folks wandered over to see what I was up to. No problems or hassles. Nothing in the covenants about homebrewing.
I think that mostly the HOA and restrictions are designed to protect the property owners and the value of their homes.
I haven't heard of many HOAs where there isn't some petty high school like bickering going on. In my community there are some trouble makers who continuously use the HOA and developer out of spite, which ends up costing the members. This is an oversimplification of the issues. Sooner or later said troublemaker will hopefully die of old age and be gone, but I have no doubt that countless others can rise to the occasion and take his place.
Point is, just like high school, life is full of jerks.
Might ask to see copies of minutes from previous HOA meetings, ask for a HOA member directory and make random calls, to see if there are issues in the neighborhood. Do some research. Ask if any lawsuits are pending or in progress or potentially might be soon or in recent past. You might also ask if there are any homebrewers in the community and see if they've had any problems.
I've been pretty lucky so far. No problems.

TD




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I just moved from the NoVa area. For those of you looking in the Sterling/Ashburn/Fairfax areas, you really ought to check out Stafford County. You can slug to DC or take VRE and there are 2 new breweries that have opened up (Adventure Brewing Company and Wild Run, both great brewers) a brew shop at the Aquia Pines Campground (and if you don't like him, there's a bigger one in Fredricksberg) and a fantastic brewing club. If you have to live near DC, this is probably the best area to live in. Anything north of rt. 234 sucks.
 
charliehorse said:
I just moved from the NoVa area. For those of you looking in the Sterling/Ashburn/Fairfax areas, you really ought to check out Stafford County. You can slug to DC or take VRE and there are 2 new breweries that have opened up (Adventure Brewing Company and Wild Run, both great brewers) a brew shop at the Aquia Pines Campground (and if you don't like him, there's a bigger one in Fredricksberg) and a fantastic brewing club. If you have to live near DC, this is probably the best area to live in. Anything north of rt. 234 sucks.
Click to expand...

3rd new brewery opening in Stafford Co
 
I managed HOA's for 10 years, now I'm a consultant to developers an builders.

I've never seen anything in any CC&R'S that you cannot brew on the premises. The only thing that I've seen that might restrict you would be that some condo or townhouses do not allow open flames of any kind on covered balconies.

I live in an HOA and brew in my garage as much as time permits. If they give you any ****, PM me and I'll let you know what to do or say. I'm a Certified Community Association Manager and know how to handle these things. :)


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