HLT Element works Boil Kettle Doesn't?

[jekeane]

Backstory: I purchased a used panel and it didn't turn out well. I found several major issues when I more closely inspected the panel at home.

I had to replace SSR's and the boil kettle l6 outlet as well as the wires to the outlet. While replacing the SSR's I also upgraded the heatsink.

My problem is now the Boil Kettle still wont fire. I have tried swapping cables and a different element and it isnt anything as simple as that I assume.

Some observations:
1. When I have nothing hooked up and switch to the BK the light turns on and stays on.
2. When I hook everything up and turn the system on the SSR that leads to the HLT (which works turns solid red) However the SSR that leads to the boil kettle does not turn on.

Boil Kettle pid is a auberin. The HLT and MT are Mypin


When I switch the element selector to the BK it faintly flashes, if you blink you would miss it but that is all. Im at a loss at this point. I am pretty out of my element with the panel stuff I can follow directions but of course a second hand custom panel lacks those...

what do i need to do next?


Old SSR and heatsink beside the new ones I just installed. Purchased from Auberins.

Outside panel

Inside front panel bottom right is the bk light

inside case

 

[jekeane]

Impart your knowledge upon me please.

 

[stlbeer]

Would like to help, but I don't see any pics, just the captions.

 

[jekeane]

Would like to help, but I don't see any pics, just the captions.

hmm they are all there for me.

 

[NervousDad]

What's going on in that last pic. It looks like your wires are burning up? Also your black wire is not connected to your contactor.

 

[jekeane]

What's going on in that last pic. It looks like you wires are burning up? Also you neutral wire is not connected to your contactor.

The first pic is the melted SSR that I replaced. The SSR that leads to the Boil Kettle as well as the Kettle receptacle were fried. I replace them and now Im at an impass. The last pick of the wiring inside the panel had a camera flash going off not sure if thats what you mean.

 

[NervousDad]

The first pic is the melted SSR that I replaced. The SSR that leads to the Boil Kettle as well as the Kettle receptacle were fried. I replace them and now Im at an impass. The last pick of the wiring inside the panel had a camera flash going off not sure if thats what you mean.

If you look at the boil kettle contactor there is a black wire that is not connected. There terminal connected is just hanging there. It's under that yellow wire nut.

Also not sure if its the flash but those wires do look burned on the HLT contactor. The "free hand" circle is the disconnected wire. The others are what look burnt. Just for safety sake, I'd double check to make sure stands from that wire were not cut, because they look like burns from over heating due to the wire now being too small for the current. (that's not what causing your problem, but it's something that you should look at so you don't start a fire)

 

[UndeadFred]

Okay.. I can't say 100% for sure on this-- In fact there is a high chance I'm flat out wrong without being there with a meter.. but with the cheap SSR's I run, the heat sink is HOT when the system is on. I actually tripped my GFCI on an early run by touching the mounting screws that the heatsink is on in my plastic case... tingle.. but of course I am all fuzzy about that since I know the GFCI will at least do what it is designed to.

The reasons I mention that, depending on how things are wired, you probably will need to isolate one of the SSR's from the other electrically or at least make sure they are switching the same line/hot side.

I could be completely wrong on this, but I figured I'd mention it because if it is the case it won't be at all obvious. I am working under the assumption that your PIDs are both working and displaying the "on" light on the PID but one of the two SSR's appears not to be doing anything.

You might want to try and put one temporarily on the little heat sink to try isolating them. If it fixes it, then either get a mica pad and plastic screws for one or both of the SSR's or cut that heat sink in half and isolate them.

Maybe this isn't how the more costly Auber SSR's work.. but I was quite surprised by how my likely counterfeit (But overrated and has forced air on it in my setup) Fotek had the heatsink "hot".

 

[UndeadFred]

If you look at the boil kettle contractor there is a black wire that is not connected. There terminal connected is just hanging there. It's under that yellow wire nut.

Also not sure if its the flash but those wire to look burned on the HLT contractor. The "free hand" circle is the disconnected wire. The others are what look burnt

Nice catch there. There is a dead short somewhere. I suspect the N/C wire is a separate issue. I can't trace the wires in that picture either. I saw one of the darkened connectors but not three. I figured it was just a bad heat shrink job but it's obvious that's the plastic crimp rings. Figure out the short, and you'll solve the issue...

 

[jekeane]

If you look at the boil kettle contractor there is a black wire that is not connected. There terminal connected is just hanging there. It's under that yellow wire nut.

Also not sure if its the flash but those wire to look burned on the HLT contractor. The "free hand" circle is the disconnected wire. The others are what look burnt

Good Eyes on the contractor that is not hooked up I wondered if that would get noticed. This was the best picture I had at the time of the post and that did get reattached and had been off just for the picture. I thought it was the problem after I had reinstalled the new SSR's, new heat sink, and receptacle. However it wasn't...

The wires are brown and would make sense that they are burn marks... That was the SSR that got toasted. 1 red wire that was going into the boil receptacle was burned into the receptacle. Honestly I thought the browning on the other wires was from a heat gun or something because there are several.

I will go through and rewire any connection that I see browning on and I may go ahead and redo all the wire on the boil side that was in contact with the ssr. I replaced all the lines for the receptacle.

 

[NervousDad]

Good Eyes on the contractor that is not hooked up I wondered if that would get noticed. This was the best picture I had at the time of the post and that did get reattached and had been off just for the picture. I thought it was the problem after I had reinstalled the new SSR's, new heat sink, and receptacle. However it wasn't...

The wires are brown and would make sense that they are burn marks... That was the SSR that got toasted. 1 red wire that was going into the boil receptacle was burned into the receptacle. Honestly I thought the browning on the other wires was from a heat gun or something because there are several.

I will go through and rewire any connection that I see browning on and I may go ahead and redo all the wire on the boil side that was in contact with the ssr. I replaced all the lines for the receptacle.

It could be that he snipped too many of the strands durning the hookup, which probably caused all of your problems.

Also, There is the red leg of the circuit connect to the HLT contactor and it's wired "in series" to the boil kettle. I don't think that is correct?. (not sure how your system is wired) BUT to me it looks like this would required that the HLT contactor would have to be "on" in order to get power the the boil kettle contactor.

 

[jekeane]

The original heat sinks had no thermal paste between the SSR's and were held together with silicon caulk... the guy who built it had the wrong screws and they were not actually in the heat sink... I assume that is what cause the original mess.

 

[jekeane]

I would be that he snipped too many of the strands durning the hookup, which probably caused all of your problems.

Also, There is the red leg of the circuit connect to the HLT contactor and it's wired "in series" to the boil kettle. I don't think that is correct?. (not sure how your system is wired) BUT to me it looks like this would required that the HLT contactor would have to be "on" in order to get power the the boil kettle contactor.

hmm can you circle that on a picture? I bought this this used and the guy really pulled one over on me. So unfortunately I don't know how this thing is wired either... Part of me thinks I should draw the hole thing out and try to find someone wise enough to be able to match up a schematic to the drawing...

the red leg that you mentioned is that the one that starts in the circle then goes to the BK contractor? I no I didnt touch that wire in this cleaning process but I also don't know if it's supposed to be there after all that I have found wrong...

 

[doug293cz]

If you look at the boil kettle contactor there is a black wire that is not connected. There terminal connected is just hanging there. It's under that yellow wire nut.

Also not sure if its the flash but those wires do look burned on the HLT contactor. The "free hand" circle is the disconnected wire. The others are what look burnt. Just for safety sake, I'd double check to make sure stands from that wire were not cut, because they look like burns from over heating due to the wire now being too small for the current. (that's not what causing your problem, but it's something that you should look at so you don't start a fire)

Yep, definitely some overheating connections in that panel. Very possibly due to substandard crimps on the wire ends. Hate to say it, but this panel was poorly built, and pretty much needs a rebuild of (at least) all the high current wiring.

As I said in your other thread, I am convinced the SSR damage was due to connections overheating. That's why the plastic melted and discolored where it did.

Brew on

 

[NervousDad]

hmm can you circle that on a picture? I bought this this used and the guy really pulled one over on me. So unfortunately I don't know how this thing is wired either... Part of me thinks I should draw the hole thing out and try to find someone wise enough to be able to match up a schematic to the drawing...

Err Scratch that last post. It looks correct.


Here is how the circuits run in my panel

 

[jekeane]

Yep, definitely some overheating connections in that panel. Very possibly due to substandard crimps on the wire ends. Hate to say it, but this panel was poorly built, and pretty much needs a rebuild of (at least) all the high current wiring.

As I said in your other thread, I am convinced the SSR damage was due to connections overheating. That's why the plastic melted and discolored where it did.

Brew on

Nothing wrong with speaking the truth!

I know little about the wiring side of things but can follow directions so my current plan is to build a ebrewsupply kit. My hope is to learn enough to possibly fix this one and recoup what I can.

Should I be able to pull the wires out of what I have find a schematic close enough to this setup that I could add or remove a few pieces and rebuild from there?

 

[jekeane]

Err Scratch that last post. It looks correct.
View attachment 354676

Here is how the circuits run in my panel

View attachment 354678

That there is how a panel should certainly look. Nice and tidy!

 

[NervousDad]

Nothing wrong with speaking the truth!

I know little about the wiring side of things but can follow directions so my current plan is to build a ebrewsupply kit. My hope is to learn enough to possibly fix this one and recoup what I can.

Should I be able to pull the wires out of what I have find a schematic close enough to this setup that I could add or remove a few pieces and rebuild from there?

Your setup looks like a Kal clone to me without all of the "bells-and-whistles". I had minimal knowledge of electric and after reading through Kal's site it's was really easy.

In your panel you have a main contactor that controls power to the panel which feeds to the PIDs at 110v. The PIDs determine if the SSRs will fire. They turn on regardless if your element switch is on/off, but they'll only send power to the element if the contactor is on (which is controlled by your element switch) That's basically all that is going on in your panel. You could technically bypass the contactor (though they are recommended because when a SSR fails it usually does so in the "on" state)

 

[jekeane]

It could be that he snipped too many of the strands durning the hookup, which probably caused all of your problems.

Also, There is the red leg of the circuit connect to the HLT contactor and it's wired "in series" to the boil kettle. I don't think that is correct?. (not sure how your system is wired) BUT to me it looks like this would required that the HLT contactor would have to be "on" in order to get power the the boil kettle contactor.

As I was starting to swap out all the brown and 10 gauge wires. the second wire I went to swap, the Red one going from the HLT to the BK contactor fell out of the the connector before i could get it unscrewed. He had cut all but 4 strands of that wire and the crimp failed. I got the rest swapped out and going to cross my fingers and give it a try after dinner.

 

[NervousDad]

As I was starting to swap out all the brown and 10 gauge wires. the second wire I went to swap, the Red one going from the HLT to the BK contactor fell out of the the connector before i could get it unscrewed. He had cut all but 4 strands of that wire and the crimp failed. I got the rest swapped out and going to cross my fingers and give it a try after dinner.

Wow that's kinda scary! If you can make sure you use a quality ratcheting crimper. Looking at those they appear to have been crimped with a pair of wire cutters.

 

[jekeane]

Sigh... Did not fix the main problem of the BK element not firing.

However, I found something strange. My element cables are labeled BK and HLT respectively. When the cables are going to their properly labeled locations BK receptacle to BK element and HLT receptacle to HLT element My problem is normal (HLT fires BK does not and the element indicator light just flashes for less than a second)

When I use any other combination of cable locations or if i swap the cables to the other side. Niether element fires and the element indicator lights light up when selected.

The element cables are l14-30p to l6-30p 6' segments Why would swapping the element cable itself effect the panel? The two cables are exactly the same build I assume the panel can't read the label...

 

[NervousDad]

Sigh... Did not fix the main problem of the BK element not firing.

However, I found something strange. My element cables are labeled BK and HLT respectively. When the cables are going to their properly labeled locations BK receptacle to BK element and HLT receptacle to HLT element My problem is normal (HLT fires BK does not and the element indicator light just flashes for less than a second)

When I use any other combination of cable locations or if i swap the cables to the other side. Niether element fires and the element indicator lights light up when selected.

The element cables are l14-30p to l6-30p 6' segments Why would swapping the element cable itself effect the panel? The two cables are exactly the same build I assume the panel can't read the label...

Maybe your cables are damaged and only make connection on that given receptacle.. I would think they are missed wired, but that would mean a hot wire is connected to a ground and you would know right away, since I'd assume that you would be shocked

Does the light on the SSR light up? Did you test the output voltage of the element receptacle?

 

[jekeane]

Maybe your cables are damaged and only make connection on that given receptacle.. I would think they are missed wired, but that would mean a hot wire is connected to a ground and you would know right away, since I'd assume that you would be shocked

Does the light on the SSR light up? Did you test the output voltage of the element receptacle?

the second SSR still did not light up. I dont have a voltage meter but realize it would be helpful at this point. Any specific requirement for one that I should get?

 

[NervousDad]

the second SSR still did not light up. I dont have a voltage meter but realize it would be helpful at this point. Any specific requirement for one that I should get?

Do you see an 'Out' light on your PID? Are you sure it's firing?

Otherwise: I wonder if your PID was burned too.
You can pull it out of the case without unwiring it (there is a little tab on the side) . You'll be able to see if the terminals are burnt.

Here is an example of a PID that I screwed up and burned the alarm terminals.

Tab to remove it from case



Burned Terminal

 

[jekeane]

I'll try and take a look at that tonight.