Highly Carbed Beer, Long Line, Still Foam?

[Supabrew]

Hi Guys,

I am getting 3/4 glass of foam when I try to pour a hefe. Once enough foam disappears in the cooled glass to drink the beer, it's borderline flat.

My fridge is at 38F and I have a tower cooler (which functions okay, although not great). Beer was force-carbed using a stone @ 22PSI for three days to reach 3.4 vol. I have about 18 feet of 3/16 line which should be enough to balance out the pressure.

I also have a Perlick flow-control faucet dialed all the way back and I'm still getting super-fast, foamy pours. I have a feeling it has something to do with attempting to serve the beer at 22PSI but I have read that dialing-down the pressure to serve then turning it back up to re-pressurize the beer would lead to similar foaming issues.

If turning serving pressure way down (2-3 PSI?) to serve, should I vent the excess CO2 to pour a beer or two then pre-pressurize? Seems like a waste of gas to do this every time we want to get a glass.

I would appreciate any advice as this is my first high-carbed beer on tap.

 

[Smellyglove]

It is a waste of gas and aromas from the beer by venting the keg over and over again.

But did you vent it before serving?

 

[Supabrew]

But did you vent it before serving?

I burped the keg a few times while carbonating, but not right before serving, and I did not vent continuously. What's the logic behind venting before serving? Surely it would reduce pressure, but the next time you serve, the PSI would be right back up, no?

 

[Smellyglove]

I burped the keg a few times while carbonating, but not right before serving, and I did not vent continuously. What's the logic behind venting before serving? Surely it would reduce pressure, but the next time you serve, the PSI would be right back up, no?

My assumption was that you carbed with a higher pressure than your serving pressure, if that's wrong then there's no need to vent before first serving and setting it to correct pressure. When I read it again it seems maybe the carb-pressure = serving pressure, without doing any calculations.

 

[Yooper]

Even with an 18' line, 22 psi at 38 degrees would foam. In my experience with highly carbed things (like soda), I need about 1 foot of line for every psi on the regulator. For soda, I use 30' of 3/16" line for example. (It's at 27 psi). I think you need more restriction especially since you're using a tower that can be warmer than the bottom of the kegerator.

 

[Supabrew]

carb-pressure = serving pressure

This is the case, at least for now. In reading on this forum and others, I read that turning down the pressure to serve then turning it back up to keep the vol of CO2 correct for the style of beer causes volatility in the beer which may worsen the foaming issue. I'm not sure if this is the case or not as I haven't tried to vent the keg, drop the pressure, serve and crank the PSI back up. Any experience with this?

Even with an 18' line, 22 psi at 38 degrees would foam

I compared a few beer-line-length calculators and it sounded like 18'-19' would suffice with the serving PSI at 22 at 38F. I thought that along with the flow-control faucet to fine-tune the rate of flow, I'd be able to control it well enough.

Man! I do have a ton of Bev-Seal Ultra Barrier Tubing on-hand, and I can cut a longer length for this batch, though based on the speed of the foam shot out of the tap, I'm not convinced that another 4' would reduce the foam. Should I go 30' and cut it back if the beer seems under-carbed?

What are you thoughts on venting & lowering the PSI to serve then turning it back up, would it help the foaming issue or just be a waste of gas?

 

[Smellyglove]

This is the case, at least for now. In reading on this forum and others, I read that turning down the pressure to serve then turning it back up to keep the vol of CO2 correct for the style of beer causes volatility in the beer which may worsen the foaming issue. I'm not sure if this is the case or not as I haven't tried to vent the keg, drop the pressure, serve and crank the PSI back up. Any experience with this?

Carb and serve at the same pressure is my thought. If you have to vent and dial down the pressure, you're running a bad business. Balance your lines to accommodate for the pressure you have in the keg.

Or, you can carb at higher pressure, quick carb, but there should be no need to dial down pressure just to fill a glass of beer. Balance your lines, you don't need a foam control/restrictor or anything if your line is balanced against the pressure and temp.

 

[Supabrew]

Balance your lines, you don't need a foam control/restrictor or anything if your line is balanced against the pressure and temp

Dad did always said to measure twice. I wonder why multiple line-length calculators missed the mark here by recommending 18-19 feet. I like to get things right the first time, dang!

Based on your replies I'll cut a new length of tubing and give it a shot.

How long of a line should I start with in this case?

 

[Yooper]

Dad did always said to measure twice. I wonder why multiple line-length calculators missed the mark here by recommending 18-19 feet. I like to get things right the first time, dang!

Based on your replies I'll cut a new length of tubing and give it a shot.

How long of a line should I start with in this case?

I've read that the ultra tubing requires more length, but I can't remember where I read that or the science behind it. You can't really go too long- the worst that can happen is it takes a few seconds longer to pour a beer. You can start with 25-30' if you have it, and just cut it if you feel the need. I have 30' coiled up ontop of the keg on my soda water keg, so it's not too bad.

 

[Smellyglove]

Dad did always said to measure twice. I wonder why multiple line-length calculators missed the mark here by recommending 18-19 feet. I like to get things right the first time, dang!

Based on your replies I'll cut a new length of tubing and give it a shot.

How long of a line should I start with in this case?

I don't know, sorry. I got burned maybe a week ago when I recomended some other fine gentleman on this forum to a length of line.. until I realized that I use what is called "tubing", pet tubes (they are basically hoses), but most people in the states use "hoses", which throws off the ID/OD because of the definition of hose/tubing.

For a hose the size is often given as ID, for a tube the diameter is often given as OD, which makes the ID smaller. I use 3/16" OD, this is defined as tube/piping.

I'd start with a long hose/tube, and just cut it down until you get what you want. Don't trust calculators.

 

[Supabrew]

I've read that the ultra tubing requires more length

That makes sense. Ran a few searches and I see similar recommendations to increase the length of the tubing...though nothing definitive.

I wonder if there's a way to calculate a % of line increase to counteract the resistance decrease (e.g. multiply standard tubing length by 1.5). I would prefer that to a trial-and-error approach which might waste several feet of line.

I'll do a few more searches on this and other forums and worst comes to worst I'll start a topic in case others are looking for a similar answer in the future.

 

[balrog]

If you have a ton, use a ton; if it's too long you can cut it down.
My other knee-jerk reaction is to wonder about anything in the line (never used a flow control spigot) that creates turbulence to knock gas out of suspension. Example: I had a system working fine, using a perlick faucet. I put in a spring to auto-close and same keg/beer/temp/pressure foamed. Remove spring, no foam.

 

[Smellyglove]

Also make sure you have a good line from the ball-lock. I had a leak in one of mye ball-locks once which gave me lot of foam.

 

[bleme]

A leaking o-ring on your dip tube causes foaming too but it really sounds like you need to increase your line to 30 feet.

 

[day_trippr]

It is true that most folks using Bev-Seal Ultra 235 barrier tubing have had to substantially increase their line lengths vs solid PVC lines (such as Bevlex 200). Most have attributed that to the slicker PET liner, but I believe what is being sold as 3/16" ID tubing actually 0.2" ID. Combine that with the PET liner and it makes sense that longer lengths are needed...

Cheers!

 

[sonic7173]

A leaking o-ring on your dip tube causes foaming too but it really sounds like you need to increase your line to 30 feet.

This^^^. I was having your same problem and it ended up being a partially flattened o-ring on my dip tube

 

[Supabrew]

wonder about anything in the line

I don't think anything is in the line causing turbulence as it's a brand new section of line for this style brew. The only place I think that could cause this is at the tap where the line goes over the barb. I am interested in eventually replacing all the fittings with JGs for ease of swapping/cleaning line.

make sure you have a good line from the ball-lock

The Bev-Seal Ultra is a PITA to work with. Our method is to gently heat the line (enough to soften but not to turn "clear") and take a heated pair of needle-nose pliers, lightly widening the end of the tubing enough to just get it over the barb. I did check for a leak at the ball-lock connection and didn't spot one... I checked for the leak because there originally was one dripping beer in the fridge as soon as I made the connection... snipping 0.5" from the line and re-connecting fixed this issue.

A leaking o-ring on your dip tube causes foaming too

Hmm, I'll have to inspect the o-ring to see if it's damaged or dislodged when I get home. It's a new 5-gallon corny; this is the second batch in this keg so I don't think it's wear-and-tear.

but it really sounds like you need to increase your line to 30 feet.

Sounds like my best bet is to start with a lot of tubing and see if it works. A post on reddit and one on another homebrew forum suggested taking the "normal" tubing calculations and increasing the length by 30-50%!

50% would be 27', so why not try an even 30' and see how it goes.

Bottoms-up, thanks everyone!

 

[Supabrew]

Birdman customer service just responded to my morning question regarding proportionate increases in Bev-Seal Ultra line and confirmed that since the resistance is lower, one needs to use more line.

They said they "use a 12' length instead of a 5' nylon beer tubing. So about a 2.4:1 ratio when compared with traditional 3/16" beer tubing".

So let's just say that the magic number is somewhere between +30% more to +250% more tubing using Ultra.

I think I'll double my original 18' to 36' and see how that goes!

Edit: I'll report back with an update after I make the change (hopefully tonight or tomorrow night) so anyone who searches this string will have some closure

 

[Supabrew]

I'll report back with an update

Last night I had time to replace the 18' line with 42'... why 42? In part because it's the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything, but also because it is over 2x the amount of recommended normal tubing for carbing/serving a 22PSI beer.

• With 18': pour was 90-95% foam, even with the flow-control dialed all the way back
• With 42': pour is about 40% foam with flow-control all the way restricted. The main difference with the 42' is that after the foam subsided, the beer was still highly-carbed which made all the difference in the world

I tried opening the flow-control all the way to see if there was any difference, but the foam was worsened...back up to about 80% foam. This was, of course, pouring into a frosty glass after the replacement line had cooled by virtue of running a little 38F beer through the line. I'm going to try to pour one tonight after the whole system has had time to "chill" to see if there's any difference in % of foam.

Birdman customer service [recommended] about a 2.4:1 ratio when compared with traditional 3/16" beer tubing

I used close to 2.4:1 (which would have been ~45.5' to my 42 and wish I used more for this highly-carbed beer. However, at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself if you're willing to use a 100' coil of line to get a perfect pour out of the tap or if you're happy drinking 1/2 of a pint at a time. I prefer pulling a little beer at a time for a wheat beer like this since the brew stays nice and chilly.

I will continue to dial-in the perfect length of Bev-Seal Ultra as I plan to keg a pale ale next week.

The hefe is outstanding by the way, one of the best wheat beers I've made, hands-down.

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TL;DR - if using Bev-Seal Ultra line, use somewhere between 200% to 250% of the line you would use if using standard line to balance your system. I recommend going with at least 2.5x to 3x to start with the higher range for highly-carbed beers