High TA 1.1

[jmsj83]

I bought Cherry juice from Walkers to make wine. The juice is marked brix 21 and TA 1.1 which is high. Any suggestions to bring this to a reasonable .6 to .
.8. Should it be deluted before starting fermentation?

 

[tsans]

21 Brix seem high for Cherry juice. Maybe stick a Hydrometer in to verify. It could be mismarked.

 

[tsans]

Check out the pH also. Cherries have a much higher Malic acid content than Grapes, so a post fermentation ML will soften the acidity.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

TA 1.1 which is high ... Any suggestions to bring this to a reasonable .6 to .
.8. Should it be deluted before starting fermentation?

If it is just juice and not concentrate, no ... I would not dilute to adjust the TA. You would just be diluting out flavor.

While ideally, you want a balanced approach to reducing TA (tartaric verses malic) ... Malolactic fermentation is one way to reduce the portion of TA due to malic.

Using a yeast which metabolizes malic acid such as Lalvin 71B-1122 is another.

Blending the final product with a wine of lower acidity is another good way and much less trouble. In this way you merely concentrate on managing pH in your cherry must/wine and then use blending (with some other wine of lesser acidity) prior to bottling to correct acidity to taste.

I would not recommend trying to reduce the malic thru chemical means. Reducing the TA in a high malic acid must using chemicals is not as straightforward as with a must where the reduction is predominantly tartaric. Chemical reduction of malic in particular requires that the must be brought to something called its “isoelectric” point, which involves a careful modification of the pH, making the pH actually higher specifically first. Furthermore, when you use the appropriate chemical such as Acidex (a "double salt" of calcium carbonate), you have to observe the proper technique in order to affect the malic ... rather than just the tartaric, which is the case with improper technique. Reducing tartaric and leaving the malic untouched will result in a wine that, as far as taste, has an even harsher edge than it did to begin with.

Note that straight carbonates such as potassium and calcium only reduce tartrates. As such, adding things like chalk etc does nothing to help you with a high malic acid must. “Cold stabilization” will not help either .... malic acid does not precipitate its salts ... just the tartaric will fall out.

I’d recommend that ... for fermentation use 71B-1122.
Get some test tape and keep on top of pH to have a successful ferment.
Then IF necessary, blend the wine to taste afterward if the acidity is in fact much higher in the final product than you want. There is no harm in bottling or storing this batch of cherry wine until you can produce another complimentary wine to blend with ... apple, banana, etc. The likelihood is that the cherry wine will be just fine.

 

[hector]

I'm having the same problem but with red grapes . I think they have a high TA .

After crushing , the pH was 3.6 . I added 100 ppm SO2 and leave it for 12 Hours , then I added pectic enzyme and leave it for 24 Hours .

At the end the pH was 3.1 , so I adjusted it to 3.4 by adding Potassium Carbonate and pitched the yeast .

Now , the problem is that the pH is STILL dropping each day , even to below 3.0 !

Should I add more K2CO3 ?!

As far as I know , adding too much K2CO3 can lead to a wine with a flabby taste .

If I let it ferment with such a low pH , the yeast would be in Stress and would emit H2S .

I use an accurate pen pH meter which is calibrated using buffer solutions .

What should I do ?!

Hector

 

[Jacob_Marley]

You’re right. It can be a horse race between treating a too low pH and getting a too low a TA.

On the positive side of adding the pot. carbonate ... that is the right call to avoid stressing the yeast with a sudden drop in pH.

In spite of pH, you may or may not have problems with stress (the yeast I mean) ... or for that matter with the ferment stalling.
What yeast did you use? Some are more tolerant of low pH than others.

Your best bet is to keep the yeast as fat-and-happy as possible. Keep the must in the right temp range ... and provided that you are not close to dryness and have a bit left to go in the ferment, you could add a small amount of yeast nutrient ... make sure you are not restricting oxygen in a closed primary (that is, use an open top primary). Make sure you are punching down the cap periodically, this not only helps the yeast find oxygen through a heavy cap but also pushes a bit of oxygen into the fermenting must for the yeast.

Grape wine usually has pretty good buffering capacity against pH drop during ferment. It’s kinda surprising that you had a big drop. Didn’t use honey in this wine, didja?
Also, having used potassium should somewhat improve the buffering capacity ... and you used carbonate rather than bicarbonate ... just slightly more potassium at that (that’s the difference between the two).

Though the pH drop should stabilize at 24 to 48 hours. ... IF pH continues to go south ... say, much below 2 .9 or so, it would be reasonable to continue careful treatment with a bit more pot carbonate.
On the other hand, if you have vigorous ferment I would hold off ... stressed yeast usually take longer to ferment out and the lag is sometimes a telling sign (stretching out a normal primary ferment to, say, a couple weeks) ... SO if they are fairly vigorous now and SG is dropping appropriately ... they are probably fine.

If I was going to add more pot. carbonate though ... I would still want to test TA first just to have that data..
As far as the final TA drop, depending on the amount added already, you could have tartrate precipitating out (whether during cold stabilization or on their own in the bottle sometime ... only so much will remain suspended in solution) ... the tartrates actually falling out further reduce TA ... so your final acidity will be apparent only then ... in any regard you can always brighten it up a bit by adding some acid back.
In the end, the proof is in the tasting.

As far as hydrogen sulfide, unless you are using montrachet, as long as you keep all the other parameters (temp, nutrients as appropriate etc) good thru the end of fermentation you should be ok.. Just keep your nose to it.
There are ways to treat hydrogen sulfide issues ... and as well ways to treat flabby wine. It'll be fine.
Was watching the movie Kelly’s Heroes the other night ... to quote Donald Sutherland: “have a little faith, baby ... have a little faith”

 

[hector]

You’re right. It can be a horse race between treating a too low pH and getting a too low a TA....

Thanks for your reply .

I used "Pasteur Red" and one of its characteristics is "Low production of H2S" .

I added enough nutrient to the Must .

I didn't add any Honey . It's still fermenting vigorously . As far as I know , H2S must be dealt as soon as possible .

Therefore , I poured it from one bucket to another several times .

Now , I can smell Ethyl acetate from the bucket . I think that it is oxidized

Hector

 

[jmsj83]

Thanks for the info. I was thinking 71B yeast might be the best option also because it states it reduces malatic acid during fermentation. Any thoughts on a ML fermentation on cherry wine? I haven't found any recomendations on what it would do. Has anyone else out there tried a ML on cherry?