High Gravity Beer - Yeast/Sugar questions

[MikeMMM]

I am brewing a Belgian Golden Strong Ale tomorrow and have some questions.
Here's the recipe with questions below:

OG: 1.072
FG: 1.007
ADF: 89%
IBU: 32
Color: 3 SRM
Alcohol: 8.5% ABV (6.7% ABW)
Boil: 90 min
Pre-Boil Volume: 7.7 gallons
Bre_Boil Gravity: 1.056

11 lb. Pilsner Grain
3 lb. liquid Beet Sugar
3.0% AA Czech Saaz 2.63 oz. (90 min)

***Wyeast 1388 Belgian Strong Ale Yeast (3 liquid yeast packs)***
--- I have one smack pack Wyeast 1388 -- Do I really need two more?

Mash @ 149 F / 90 min (I will mash out at 180 F)
90 min. boil.

Pitch yeast at 64 deg and raise to 82 deg. over one week


Questions:
1. Do I really need three smack packs of yeast? I have no issues with buying the other two, I just want to make sure this isn't a typo. I know you need a lot of yeast activity for a high OG beer but never heard of three liquid.

2. Do I pitch all three at once or in steps during the fermentation process?

3. I have three one lb. liquid beet sugar packages to add. Do I add all three at flame out or should I add some at flame out and then some later in the fermentation proceess before yeast activity stops.

4. The recipe says the to increase the fermentation slowly from 64 to 82 over the course of one week. Will I really get fermentation in one week. I have read many posts that Wyeast 1833 is a great yeast but it is often active for many weeks in high OG beers.

 

[SilverZero]

You should really consider making a starter from one pack instead of buying three. You'll get the same results and save a few bucks. Or, you could pitch dry yeast, I do one pack of Notty on my 1.077 IPA and it gets down to 1.010 just fine in a few days. But if you do use a starter, you can decant off a lot of the liquid and pitch a nice concentrated yeast slurry, so you don't add too much extra liquid to the wort. The reason it asks for three packs is just based off of a calculation between the amount of yeast in one package, the viability on average, and the amount "necessary" for a certain gravity. Starters will grow the yeast over a period of a few days, and you can do it in two steps to really get them up (do a 1L starter, cold-crash it after 48 hours, decant it the next day, add another 1L of wort and let it go again, then decant that and pitch the slurry). That said, people have great results even just pitching one pack of anything on any kind of wort. There are potential benefits to pitching more yeast, and potential drawbacks to not doing so, but "potential" is the key to both of those.

With the sugar, it doesn't much matter when you add it, I'd add it and let it boil for a few minutes (maybe flame off and then add and then back on for a while) just to get it dissolved. I've never added liquid before, but I imagine it's syrupy and would have trouble dissolving in the cooled wort or beer during primary. Again, I have no experience with that, but when I've looked into adding candi sugar, people say to just get it in the boil near the end - but then others say you can add it during primary if you like. I don't think it makes much difference.

Fermentation can take as little as 3 days with good yeast, but that doesn't mean the yeast won't use more time to finish up and clean up if you give them more time. Lower fermenting temps at the beginning will help the yeast ferment cleaner, and then there's more room for them to go higher after most of the sugar has been converted. I've never heard of a prescribed step-up in primary temps, but maybe I'm just not that experienced.

 

[beergolf]

You would be best making a starter, but 3 packs will work.

With 3 lbs of sugar there are a few options. You can add them all in the boil. Option 2 is add one at flameout, then the others after a few days of fermenting. Maybe at day 3 and the other at day six. They all will work. The theory of adding some after fermentation slows is the yeast can eat the more complex sugars of the wort first and then eat the simple sugars later. It is like telling a kid they they cannot have desert until they finish their dinner.

 

[MikeMMM]

You should really consider making a starter from one pack instead of buying three. You'll get the same results and save a few bucks. Or, you could pitch dry yeast, I do one pack of Notty on my 1.077 IPA and it gets down to 1.010 just fine in a few days. But if you do use a starter, you can decant off a lot of the liquid and pitch a nice concentrated yeast slurry, so you don't add too much extra liquid to the wort. The reason it asks for three packs is just based off of a calculation between the amount of yeast in one package, the viability on average, and the amount "necessary" for a certain gravity. Starters will grow the yeast over a period of a few days, and you can do it in two steps to really get them up (do a 1L starter, cold-crash it after 48 hours, decant it the next day, add another 1L of wort and let it go again, then decant that and pitch the slurry). That said, people have great results even just pitching one pack of anything on any kind of wort. There are potential benefits to pitching more yeast, and potential drawbacks to not doing so, but "potential" is the key to both of those.

With the sugar, it doesn't much matter when you add it, I'd add it and let it boil for a few minutes (maybe flame off and then add and then back on for a while) just to get it dissolved. I've never added liquid before, but I imagine it's syrupy and would have trouble dissolving in the cooled wort or beer during primary. Again, I have no experience with that, but when I've looked into adding candi sugar, people say to just get it in the boil near the end - but then others say you can add it during primary if you like. I don't think it makes much difference.

Fermentation can take as little as 3 days with good yeast, but that doesn't mean the yeast won't use more time to finish up and clean up if you give them more time. Lower fermenting temps at the beginning will help the yeast ferment cleaner, and then there's more room for them to go higher after most of the sugar has been converted. I've never heard of a prescribed step-up in primary temps, but maybe I'm just not that experienced.

Thanks for the response. I really should start doing starters but I'm brewing tomorrow so not enough time. My understanding on the reasoning for a ramped up fermentation temp is this. You don't want to start fermenting at a high temp to lessen the chance of off favors. Once fermentation produces high alcohol you need higher temps later in the fermentation process to keep the yeast actively converting all those sugars. I'm not that experienced either. I just read enough to make me dangerous. Most Duvel recipes and belgian strong ale recipes that I've seen have this step. Maybe it's the yeast strain in this type of beer though? I'm not sure.

 

[Sulli]

OP says he is brewing tomorrow, so there is no time to step; but if you have the means to make a 2 liter starter and shake the @#$% out of it every hour or so, you will probably end up with close to the required amount of yeast by tomorrow.

Otherwise, I would definitely pitch more than 1 pack for a beer with an OG that high.

 

[MikeMMM]

OP says he is brewing tomorrow, so there is no time to step; but if you have the means to make a 2 liter starter and shake the @#$% out of it every hour or so, you will probably end up with close to the required amount of yeast by tomorrow.

Otherwise, I would definitely pitch more than 1 pack for a beer with an OG that high.

I'm not sure if I have the means for a starter. I looked for step by step instructions but could not find any. Know of any links that would spell it out for me?

 

[Denny]

I'm not sure if I have the means for a starter. I looked for step by step instructions but could not find any. Know of any links that would spell it out for me?

www.mrmalty.com

 

[Sulli]

Mr. Malty doesn't really have step by step instructions.

Here's a pretty good link. http://www.klob.org/sites/klob.org/files/Yeast%20Starters%20Presentation_0.pdf

 

[MikeMMM]

Thanks for the web sites. I didn't have the dme to do a yeast starter so I went and picked up the additional yeast... This time. I will definitely be ready to try a yeast starter next time. Three wyeast 1388's for one batch came to 18 bucks.

 

[SilverZero]

Thanks for the web sites. I didn't have the dme to do a yeast starter so I went and picked up the additional yeast... This time. I will definitely be ready to try a yeast starter next time. Three wyeast 1388's for one batch came to 18 bucks.

That's why I switched to Nottingham. One 11g packet gives you up to 200 billion cells (assuming you rehydrate correctly), and at 1.077 even the calculators say you need 277 billion - close enough that I don't really worry about undercutting it by not pitching two packets. My DIPA (9%, 1.077-1.010) gets compliments that make me blush, and the flavors are better than anything else in Bend (in my opinion - biased!), so I stick with what works. That's $4 in yeast per batch, and I don't have to open the package until 15 minutes before I pitch.

I understand there's a reason to use specific strains that are only readily available as liquid, for flavor profiles and such, but I haven't branched out that far in my tasting qualifications yet.

 

[Denny]

Yeah, as you mention, Nottingham is in no way a sub for 1388.