Hi. My name is CalmYourself, and I had an infection

[CalmYourself]

(Long post ahead)
Now that the infections anonymous introductions are over...

What could I have done wrong?

I'm going to work through brewday with you guys (unfortunately I don't have too many photos) and hopefully we can begin to pinpoint where I went wrong.

Some basics:

1. Yes, I am 100% sure it was an infection.
2. I am a plastic brewer - everything is plastic
3. I BIAG with double sparge - the bag isn't very fine
4. I use Sodium Metabisulphite for sanitizing (I believe)
5. No, I can't get Starsan here
6. And yes, iodophor is actually that incredibly hard to find here

It was DEFINITELY an infection. I came home and wondered what that awful smell was. Narrowed it down to the fermenter and poured a cup so I could smell better and taste it. As I raised it to my nose I instantly wanted to vomit. It was awful. Really bad. Just to be absolutely certain I tasted it too. I did vomit upon tasting. I refuse to believe that the aroma and flavour aren't an infeciton.

Yeast was pitched 1 day prior to this. Yeast was 1 packet of dry Safale US-05, pitching temp was 17 degrees celcius. Brew was a Summit Smash, chilled with immersion chiller. (was supposed to be a comparison to a nochill version. Nochill version is still happily fermenting away)


So the first thing to check is: Did I clean my equipment properly?
All of my equipment was visibly clean. I clean with warm water (about as hot as I can handle), some bleach and a soft sponge. I try not to rub too much whilst cleaning as I don't want to scratch the plastic. I clean the fermenters, bottles, boiler, and all equipment until visibly clean. (infection occured before bottling bucket so spigot is eliminated). I run the water and bleach solution through the ballvalve taps for a couple seconds and rinse the whole lot with cold water after.

Is my cleaning sufficient?


Next: does my sanitizer work?
Like I said, I believe my sanitizer is sodium metabisulphite. I bought it at a LHBS. Here is a photo of the label and instructions I got with it.

Here's a photo of the insides.

Can anyone confirm if this is something that could sanitize? What would the contact time for this be? It's definitely a rinse sanitizer and smells vile with in solution (my throat usually starts closing up if I'm around it too long).

Next: Is my sanatizing procedure sufficient?
Similar to the cleaning procudure, I sanitize the fermenters and all equipment that will touch the wort after boil. I DON'T sanitize my hands. I DON'T sanitize the brew kettle. I DON'T sanitize my measuring stick (to check I've boiled down to the right amount). I DON'T sanitize the ball-valve taps on the boiler. To sanitize, I mix about 3 litres of sanitizer, chuck it all in the fermenter, put the lid on, and shake it around for a couple seconds. I pour the solution back into a container and rinse the fermenter out with cold water.

For all other equipment I basically pour some of the solution over it and then use the item. I don't rinse the equipment.

Could my sanitizing not be effective enough? Could my hands be the problem?


Where else could I have gone wrong? EVERYTHING (except the boiler) is sitting full of bleach and water and vinegar (20ml bleach, 20 litre water, 20 ml vinegar as per some brew strong podcast) at the moment. It's probably going to stay full of that solution for the next couple weeks until the next batch of ingredients arrive.

What can I try next time to reduce the chance of infection?

Edit: I use normal tap water for brewing. Haven't ever had a problem before. And it's all boiled during brewing (I've never had to add top-up water) so surely that should fix any problems there?

 

[popester]

How do you go from kettle to fermenter?

 

[CalmYourself]

I place the fermenter under the ballvalve tap on the boiler, open wide and wait till it's all in.

 

[alcibiades]

do you sanitize your ball valve tap? I mean it probably heats up enough to kill the bacteria in it, but maybe not?.....

 

[wildwest450]

do you sanitize your ball valve tap? I mean it probably heats up enough to kill the bacteria in it, but maybe not?.....

Not necessary, a 60 minute boil will kill anything.

 

[remilard]

Not necessary, a 60 minute boil will kill anything.

Well, anything that spoils beer at least.

However, you aren't boiling liquid on all surfaces of the ball valve and, moreover, you certainly aren't boiling liquid in a nipple or anything else on the other end of the ball valve.

 

[CalmYourself]

No I didn't. I had just finished a batch of nochill in the boiler roughly 4 hours before (HSA be damned!) so I made the assumption that the hot wort flowing through it would have sorted that out. Straight after the nochill batch, the boiler was started again for this batch.

I suppose that could have been the source.

I'll be sanitizing the ballvalve taps in advance from now on, but they will still be stuck on the boiler during the boil so that's a window of 60-90 minutes where something could attach to the tap. Any problems with this? Anything I can do to prevent problems?

 

[HoppyDaze]

the product you have is a sterilizer, not a sanatizer...so you must rinse well. If you rinse with just normal tap water that may be where you are getting infected. I would keep a supply of boiled water on hand for rinsing equipment. Do you drink your tap water? You really need to find a no-rinse sanitizer. Why cant you order some online?

 

[popester]

It may have just been a fluke, in that case try again. If it happens again your plastic is most likely the cause and would need to be thrown out.

Is your nochill batch doing fine?

 

[CalmYourself]

Yes, I drink the tap water and I haven't had any issues with infections before (that I'm aware of - nothing as bad as this at least)

I would love starsan specifically, but I can't find any online shops willing to ship to South Africa. Everyone seems to be willing to ship there wares to UK and USA + Canada, but none to SA. Can you point out an online vendor willing to?

 

[popester]

Where do you buy your normal beer supplies from? Can you convince them to carry it?

 

[HoppyDaze]

maybe someone on this board will...I mean it doesnt have to be a vendor. Just thinking outload

 

[wildwest450]

Well, anything that spoils beer at least.

That was the question. I really see no need to sanitize a ball valve and I highly doubt that's where his infection came from. I would think scratched plastic fermenter first.

 

[CalmYourself]

Nochill batch is going fine. SG stabled out at 1.011 a couple days ago. Very cloudy, but fermentation has just finished so it should clear out soon enough. The whole exercise was to have a comparison between nochill and normal... that didn't work out...

 

[springer]

Talk to people who are in the food industry around you they must have a no rinse sanitizer that is food safe. If you can get potassium metabisulphite like in Campden Tablets or just the powder you can make a no rinse sanitizer. If you use Campden Tablets then its about 14 tablets to 1 gallon of water . Crystal form you use 1 teaspoon per gallon. You need about 940 ppm .

I would hit up some restaurants they have to have something .

 

[CalmYourself]

maybe someone on this board will...I mean it doesnt have to be a vendor. Just thinking outload

I think I'm going to have to start asking a couple friends if I can order to their addresses and get them to ship it to me. Good idea!!

 

[Sawdustguy]

the product you have is a sterilizer, not a sanatizer...so you must rinse well. If you rinse with just normal tap water that may be where you are getting infected. I would keep a supply of boiled water on hand for rinsing equipment. Do you drink your tap water? You really need to find a no-rinse sanitizer. Why cant you order some online?

I looked it up on the web and Wikipedia says it is routinely used in homebrewing as a sanitizer. Here is the URL:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_metabisulfite

 

[Sawdustguy]

I wonder if it really an infection after all. It is actually the sulfur gases that are released from the Sodium Bisulfite that act
as the sanitizing agent, killing wild molds, bacteria, germs and other unwanted little nasties. I wonder if you are just smelling the Sodium Metabisulfate doing it's thing. The following is from Wikipedia on Sodium Metabisulfite.

Chemical properties

When mixed with water, sodium metabisulfite releases sulfur dioxide (SO2), a pungent, unpleasant smelling gas that can also cause breathing difficulties in some people. For this reason, sodium metabisulfite has fallen from common use in recent times, with agents such as hydrogen peroxide becoming more popular for effective and odorless sterilization of equipment. Released sulfur dioxide however makes the water a strong reducing agent.

I wonder if your problem is simply not rinsing well enough and the sodium metabisulfite released a really foul odor when reacting with the wort. I bet if there was enough sodium metabisulfite to cause a foul odor it was probably enough to affect the taste also. You may have used too strong a solution because they recommend only 2 oz/gallon of water.

 

[HoppyDaze]

I looked it up on the web and Wikipedia says it is routinely used in homebrewing as a sanitizer. Here is the URL:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_metabisulfite

Whats the point of this post again? It says right on the package "sterilizer" and it also says it must be rinsed which is exactly the point I was making. So again, why?

Venting...huge peave of mine to not add any value to a thread or just post something for the sake of telling someone they are wrong without considering the context

venting over...

 

[springer]

The directions on the package use 1 Tablespoon per 2 liters, to make a sanitizer would require much less like 1 teaspoon per gallon the instructions are wacked .


If he is using Sodium metabisulfite and we really don't know, if so he is making nuke powered sanitizer.

 

[CalmYourself]

I looked it up on the web and Wikipedia says it is routinely used in homebrewing as a sanitizer

Thanks! You put my mind at ease... I suppose I really should have at least googled it myself first...

At least it's definitely used to sanitize.

I wonder if your problem is simply not rinsing well enough and the sodium metabisulfite released a really foul odor when mixing with the wort. I bet if there was enough sodium metabisulfite to cause a foul odor it was probably enough to affect the taste also. You may have used too strong a solution because they recommend only 2 oz/gallon of water.

I can't remember exactly how well I rinsed the fermenter, but the foul oudor wasn't anything that reminded me of the sanitizer... it was severely rotten. The sanitizer typically has a burn to it, if you smell it your nasal passages burn, eyes water, coughing, spluttering etc. No nausea. The beer smell was offensive, but in a rotten way not a make-you-struggle-to-breath sort of way.

 

[CalmYourself]

For the quantities:
1 oz = 28.3 grams, 1 gallon = 3.79 litres.

2 oz / gallon = 56.6 grams / 3.79 litres = 15 grams per litre (roughly)

1 tablespoon is roughly 13.5 grams (I use heaped, so call it 20 grams)
1 tablspoons / 2 litres = 20 grams / 2 litres = 10 grams per litre.

So the directions are a little less than the wikipedia dosage (or is my buzzed math off?)

 

[giligson]

...The sanitizer typically has a burn to it, if you smell it your nasal passages burn, eyes water, coughing, spluttering etc. ..

This certainly sounds like Metabislufite. - good way to set off an episode in any of your asthmatic friends too.

Sulfite is no good for cleaning surfaces - only for killing bugs on fairly clean surfaces. You need to make sure all your "biofilm" and other organic waste is cleared off before you sanitize. So you will have to find a detergent like compound to clean first then try to sanitize. For instance one of the oxyclean type detergents. But there must be a source of combination cleaners in Johanessburg. Try to find Stericlean (also called Diversol BXA) it is a no rinse cleaner and sanitizer as long as you use it warm and in the higher concentration.
http://barleylegal.ca/Articles/TheTruthAboutDiversol

 

[Sawdustguy]

Whats the point of this post again? It says right on the package "sterilizer" and it also says it must be rinsed which is exactly the point I was making. So again, why?

Venting...huge peave of mine to not add any value to a thread or just post something for the sake of telling someone they are wrong without considering the context

venting over...

CalmYourself down. Pun intended. I didn't make the post to show you up or claim you were wrong. I read the label too. I am not shy. If I thought you were wrong I most certainly would have said so. All I did was look it up and post that the article said that homebrewers routinely use it as a sanitizer too. I was just trying to help the original poster who had doubts if it could be used as a sanitizer. I am pretty sure the article that it said it could be used as both as a sanitizer and sterilizer. I am really not disagreeing with you. Jeeesh......Is is open season on me today? Man, tuff crowd today!

 

[HoppyDaze]

I was just venting....like I said.

must be that time of the month or something

 

[Sawdustguy]

I was just venting....like I said.

must be that time of the month or something

That's fine but vent when there is something to vent about next time. Don't vent at someone who is trying to help the OP or someone who is not disagreeing with you. Man, I would hate to be the guy that does disagree with you.

 

[CalmYourself]

While I understand the benefit of a decent no-rinse sanitizer a la Starsan, I don't think using sodium metabisulphite would have contributed other than in the rinsing stage or not having cleaned the equipment properly beforehand.

So to summarize, possible issues could be (in my understood order of likelihood):

1. Cleaning may have been suspect, biofilm or organic waste may have remained
2. Plastic could have a scratch in it
3. May have been a fluke
4. Potential slow start to fermentation
5. I didn't sanatize the ball-valve tap
6. Rinse water (or brew water) could have contaminated the brew

Have I missed anything?

All of these seem fairly easy to address (except for the rinse and brew water). To prevent the same issue again I'll be spending more detail on cleaning my equipment. I'll also use the exact same fermenter next time again. If I don't get an infection I'll take that to mean that there aren't any nasties hiding in scratches within the plastic. I'll also santize the ball-valve too. Won't take long and shouldn't be any harm in doing so.

 

[samc]

Make this #6
A fast starting ferment can keep the infections from taking over your beer. You pitched @ 17C (62.6F) which is on the cool side slighlty. If you pitched without rehydrating then you are supposed to pitch into warmer wort to help get things going. You might want to bump up a few degrees or rehydrate if you are not doing so. I usually pitch into 70F+ and then bring the temp down to 65F or so over a few hours.

 

[CalmYourself]

Make this #6
A fast starting ferment can keep the infections from taking over your beer. You pitched @ 17C (62.6F) which is on the cool side slighlty. If you pitched without rehydrating then you are supposed to pitch into warmer wort to help get things going. You might want to bump up a few degrees or rehydrate if you are not doing so. I usually pitch into 70F+ and then bring the temp down to 65F or so over a few hours.

Added it as a potential cause.

I usually pitch low and raise the temperature slowly (exact opposite to you) but I have no records on how long it took for fermentation to start on this particular batch. Never really take notice of that stuff.

Surely getting a quick ferm going would only help to mask the infection (prevent it from getting out of control) whilst proper sanitation and cleaning should prevent it from happening in the first place?

Assuming PERFECT sanitation and cleaning, can you still get an infection?

 

[Cheaton]

So how long exactly had the wort been in the fermenter before the vomiting episode? 24-48 hours seems awfully fast for a full blown infection to set in that totally ruins the batch. While I understand that wort is a great medium for bacterial reproduction, at 17c after a boil the bacterial growth should be rather slow. Did you taste your wort before you pitched? I'm more inclined to think this is chemical as opposed to bacterial. Some sort of reaction took place. Perhaps something to do with your sanitizer, or considering you use unfiltered tap water, maybe there was some sort of water treatment done by your water company recently that is not typical. 24-48 hours is extremely fast for bacteria to take hold in completely spoil 5 gallons of media that was essentially pasteurized and placed into a sanitized vessel unless a huge innoculant was added. And by that I mean, a large amount of active bacteria was introduced to the wort after it dropped below 150 degrees. And by large amount, I mean, a visible golfball sized chunk of a colony. I understand you believe you had an infection, but that's not what the evidence points to in my opinion. Chemical reactions can take off really fast with a very small introduction of the the reacting chemical. Bacterial, not so much. You would need a pretty good contamination to cause that much growth that quick. My wife says e.coli is one of the fastest growers, in perfect conditions (the perfect media, at 30c, under agitation) it can double itself every 20 minutes. So unless your wort was infected with the perfect beer bug, that loves still media, at 17c, I don't think its bacterial. (Hmmm, wouldn't that bug be yeast?)

 

[Sawdustguy]

So how long exactly had the wort been in the fermenter before the vomiting episode? 24-48 hours seems awfully fast for a full blown infection to set in that totally ruins the batch. While I understand that wort is a great medium for bacterial reproduction, at 17c after a boil the bacterial growth should be rather slow. Did you taste your wort before you pitched? I'm more inclined to think this is chemical as opposed to bacterial. Some sort of reaction took place. Perhaps something to do with your sanitizer, or considering you use unfiltered tap water, maybe there was some sort of water treatment done by your water company recently that is not typical. 24-48 hours is extremely fast for bacteria to take hold in completely spoil 5 gallons of media that was essentially pasteurized and placed into a sanitized vessel unless a huge innoculant was added. And by that I mean, a large amount of active bacteria was introduced to the wort after it dropped below 150 degrees. And by large amount, I mean, a visible golfball sized chunk of a colony. I understand you believe you had an infection, but that's not what the evidence points to in my opinion. Chemical reactions can take off really fast with a very small introduction of the the reacting chemical. Bacterial, not so much. You would need a pretty good contamination to cause that much growth that quick. My wife says e.coli is one of the fastest growers, in perfect conditions (the perfect media, at 30c, under agitation) it can double itself every 20 minutes. So unless your wort was infected with the perfect beer bug, that loves still media, at 17c, I don't think its bacterial. (Hmmm, wouldn't that bug be yeast?)

+1 I think he is simply smelling/tasting the reaction between the sodium metabisulfite and the wort. To reiterate, the way sodium metabisulfite works is not by contact, but by giving off sulphur gas when in contact with water. The sulphur gas is actually what sanitizes/sterilizes, not the chemical itself. At least that is what I have read. I am sure the sulphur gas stinks to high heaven and probably doesn't taste real good when infused into wort.

 

[CalmYourself]

So how long exactly had the wort been in the fermenter before the vomiting episode?

3 Days. I pitched on the Thursday, cleaned up, then went to SWMBO's place for a couple days. Came back on Sunday morning.

I understand you believe you had an infection, but that's not what the evidence points to in my opinion.

What you say makes sense. Any way to test the water so as to eliminate that? If I use bottled water I'd also have to get nutrient tablets somewhere, right? That and there's no gaurantee that the bottled water is sanitized.

Half of the sanitizer I used was from a previous batch that I mixed up about 4 weeks prior. According to the instructions though, if it still has a pungeant it should be ok... and it was! Don't think that should be a problem but I'll be making fresh batches each time from now on.

 

[Cheaton]

While you may not be able to test your water, you may be able to call your water company and ask if they're done any seasonal or periodic treatments recently. It is possible that based on the trends of flora in your area that they treat periodically for certain microbes. I want to clarify that I'm in no way an expert on this stuff, I just happen to have a wife who's a Dr. of biochemistry. So, whether I like it or not I've been inundated with bacteria information over the past 5 years. She, being a scientist, would probably not be so quick to jump to an opinion on this subject. But, me, not being a scientist, am all too willing to give my opinion. Anyway, I think this may be a sulfur thing. Maybe your rinsing wasn't thorough enough. I don't personally have any issues (yet) with using filtered tapwater straight from the tap to top off my cooled wort. It could even be chemicals IN the tapwater reacting with your sanitizer. It could be the yeast reacting with chemicals in the tapwater or in the sanitizer. But, I would be willing to bet money, albeit not a large some, that this wasn't bacterial. The only way to know for sure is to try again using the exact same methods. Perhaps on a small scale and see if you can repeat the problem. Experimentation is the only way you're going to figure this one out as it isn't a commonplace issue.

 

[bendavanza]

Bars usually have a no rinse sanitizer they use for cleaning glasses in a 3 bath sink. Check with them over a pint?
Also you could look into betadine or other iodine based sanitizer at a drugstore. I wouldn't want to use a sanitizer that smelled that bad, or I'd just use a bleach water solution if I had to use a rinse type.
-Ben

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

Thought #1) You mentioned that you use your chemical of choice, then you rinse with untreated cold tap water.

I think that right there pretty much solves the case.

Thought #2) You're smelling/tasting the sulfites.

 

[HoppyDaze]

That's fine but vent when there is something to vent about next time. Don't vent at someone who is trying to help the OP or someone who is not disagreeing with you. Man, I would hate to be the guy that does disagree with you.

 

[CalmYourself]

I'll be brewing again soon using the exact equipment but with a slightly more stringent cleaning and sanitation process.

I'm thinking of no-chilling in the same fermenter to give any scratch-resident bacteria the best chance of coming through (if nothing comes then I know the equipment wasn't the problem).

Rinse water will be pre-boiled with a small amount of bleach added after (10ml to 15 litres - low enough to be no-rinse)

I won't be using the metabisulfite, I'll be getting an iodine based sanitizer instead. All equipment is still enjoying a good solid bleach-water-vinegar solution soak and will be doing so until brewday.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I'll let everyone know how it goes

 

[Sawdustguy]

I'll be brewing again soon using the exact equipment but with a slightly more stringent cleaning and sanitation process.

I'm thinking of no-chilling in the same fermenter to give any scratch-resident bacteria the best chance of coming through (if nothing comes then I know the equipment wasn't the problem).

Rinse water will be pre-boiled with a small amount of bleach added after (10ml to 15 litres - low enough to be no-rinse)

I won't be using the metabisulfite, I'll be getting an iodine based sanitizer instead. All equipment is still enjoying a good solid bleach-water-vinegar solution soak and will be doing so until brewday.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I'll let everyone know how it goes

Please, never mix bleach and vinegar. The combination could give off chlorine gas. Chlorine is a respiratory irritant that attacks mucous membranes and burns the skin. I understand the solution you are useing is diluted with water but even a lite exposure can be dangerous.

The following is an excerpt from the "Agency for Toxic Substances & Disease Registry" website. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg172.html

Exposure to low concentrations of chlorine (1 to 10 ppm) may cause eye and nasal irritation, sore throat, and coughing. Inhalation of higher concentrations of chlorine gas (>15 ppm) can rapidly lead to respiratory distress with airway constriction and accumulation of fluid in the lungs (pulmonary edema). Patients may have immediate onset of rapid breathing, blue discoloration of the skin, wheezing, rales or hemoptysis. In symptomatic patients, pulmonary injury may progress over several hours. Lung collapse may occur. The lowest lethal concentration for a 30-minute exposure has been estimated as 430 ppm. Exposure to chlorine can lead to reactive airways dysfunction syndrome (RADS), a chemical irritant-induced type of asthma.

Children may be more vulnerable to corrosive agents than adults because of the smaller diameter of their airways. Children may also be more vulnerable to gas exposure because of increased minute ventilation per kg and failure to evacuate an area promptly when exposed.

I don't mean to be an alarmist, but mixing bleach and vinegar is a really bad idea. I just don't want any harm to come to you or your family. If you haven't already, move the vessel you are soaking your equipment in outdoors immediately.

 

[springer]

if done correctly then it can be used ,click on the Pod cast from Basic Brewing radio

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/fratermus/Experiment__BWV_bleachwatervinegar_as_norinse_sanitizer/

 

[mcpusc]

I would love starsan specifically, but I can't find any online shops willing to ship to South Africa. Everyone seems to be willing to ship there wares to UK and USA + Canada, but none to SA. Can you point out an online vendor willing to?

Can you get Betadine or Povidone-iodine from a drug store or pharmacy? It's used to clean skin/wounds in a medical setting - I would imagine it's available world-wide. It's about the same thing as Iodophor, except marketed for medical instead of food service use.