Hey Spunders, did your beer quality go up after you discoverd spunding?

[Vale71]

Is the chart based on measurements of DO in beer after force carbonation with CO2 with the given O2 content, or based on calculations. If based on calculations, what are the assumptions underpinning the calculations?

Brew on

The assumption is that all of the O2 will make it into the beer in a short time. This is possibly true when using a quick carbonation method, obviously not true when force carbonating the slow way (a.k.a. set-and-forget method) as solubility of O2 is much lower than that of CO2. But the latter of course is conveniently ignored by the LODO crowd...

Just to get back on topic, IMHO the greatest benefit beer receives when spunding is not from the advantages of naturally occurring CO2 vs. bottled CO2 but simply because it forces the brewer to transfer the beer to a closed vessel before fermentation is completely through instead of letting it sit in a non-airtight container for up to several weeks and then maybe performing an open transfer on top of that. That actually has the potential of exposing your beer to quite a lot of O2.

 

[Vale71]

[emoji897]

I'll have some of that please...

 

[BruceH]

Just to get back on topic, IMHO the greatest benefit beer receives when spunding is not from the advantages of naturally occurring CO2 vs. bottled CO2 but simply because it forces the brewer to transfer the beer to a closed vessel before fermentation is completely through instead of letting it sit in a non-airtight container for up to several weeks and then maybe performing an open transfer on top of that. That actually has the potential of exposing your beer to quite a lot of O2.

I think that reduced oxidation is the biggest benefit I'm getting from spunding. I am doing an open transfer into a purged keg when fermentation is partially complete, prior to this everything was bottled.

The spunded beer tastes smoother and the carbonation is finer than my bottled beer. My palate isn't refined (or educated) enough to discern all the things that are making it taste better. I would guess that besides reduced oxidation there is something to do with flavors from the yeast when fermented under pressure.

 

[Vale71]

If you're doing an open transfer then you are missing out on some of the benefits of spunding as your beer will still pick up some oxygen, but that's obviously unavoidable unless you get some sort of FV that allows transfer under pressure or even better a unitank.

Under pressure flavor contributions from yeast metabolism are actually reduced but that's not really an issue unless you transfer with more than 50% to go. If you only have a few points to go then the beer character has already been defined and it won't make any discernible difference.

 

[BruceH]

If you're doing an open transfer then you are missing out on some of the benefits of spunding as your beer will still pick up some oxygen, but that's obviously unavoidable unless you get some sort of FV that allows transfer under pressure or even better a unitank.

Under pressure flavor contributions from yeast metabolism are actually reduced but that's not really an issue unless you transfer with more than 50% to go. If you only have a few points to go then the beer character has already been defined and it won't make any discernible difference.

Yes, I understand. After transfer I "purge" accumulated fermentation co2 via the pressure relief valve a few times in the hopes of releasing any transfer captured o2 in the headspace.

As time goes on I'll upgrade equipment but it's a slow process, the same can be said for my learning about brewing. The recent improvements for me have been getting an old fridge and inkbird for a fermention chamber, kegging with spunding, and water analysis with chemical additions.

The recent changes have been light years of progress vs how I was making beer and I'm sure there are many things left to improve on.

 

[Bilsch]

Is the chart based on measurements of DO in beer after force carbonation with CO2 with the given O2 content, or based on calculations. If based on calculations, what are the assumptions underpinning the calculations?

It is based off calculations using the known quantity of oxygen in a given volume of carbon dioxide. The assumption, well fact actually, is if you know how much oxygen is going into a sealed container (the keg) then one can be reasonably certain how much is in there.

Measuring oxygen in beer is quite difficult since it has a habit of quickly disappearing.

 

[Vale71]

Measuring oxygen in beer is quite difficult since it has a habit of quickly disappearing.

I though that it was because the equipment is super-expensive and none of you guys can certainly afford it. I know for sure that you can measure oxygen in beer for months after packaging so I'm not sure what qualifies as "quickly" for you.

As for your snide comment that if you know how much oxygen goes into a container then you know how much oxygen will be in the container, with your table you claim to know how much oxygen will actually be in the beer and that's a completely different thing, so try again maybe...

 

[lump42]

I only spund when I've got a beer that's finished but no space left in the kegarator or when I know I'm running low on CO2 (I'm cheap and lazy). I haven't noticed any difference at all between a full force carbed beer and spunded. If we're comparing 'burst' carbonated then there's a difference.

I've also started running the blowoff tubes to kegs to push sanitizer out and purge them. Again saves on co2, since it isn't cheap where I live.

 

[Bilsch]

The assumption is that all of the O2 will make it into the beer in a short time. This is possibly true when using a quick carbonation method, obviously not true when force carbonating the slow way (a.k.a. set-and-forget method) as solubility of O2 is much lower than that of CO2. But the latter of course is conveniently ignored by the LODO crowd.

It’s interesting that you think the oxygen will sit quietly in the keg headspace because of the low solubility in the liquid. The fact is the oxygen in solution is constantly reacting with the antioxidants in the beer.. namely your fresh malt flavors and hop aromas. This process is known as staling. As the oxygen in solution is quickly being depleted by said antioxidants, the remaining O2 in the headspace is quietly going into solution until all the oxygen in the keg is gone. Along with your freshness!

Because of the laws of physics and chemistry it does not matter how the oxygen gets into the keg, it’s all going into the beer. This is proven, settled long ago, brewing science.

I’m sorry you see this as fear mongering. It’s just science and nothing to be afraid of.

 

[Bilsch]

As for your snide comment that if you know how much oxygen goes into a container then you know how much oxygen will be in the container, with your table you claim to know how much oxygen will actually be in the beer and that's a completely different thing, so try again maybe...

Instead of arguing your intuition with me, it probably would be wise to do a search on the mechanisms of beer staling. You will find literally dozens of papers on the subject over many years. Therein you will learn what happens when oxygen comes into contact with beer.

 

[elgatovolador]

I've found that spunded lagers take a long time to clear (usually several months), but the reward is that they exhibit a wonderful, fine, and moussey carbonation and foam stand I can't seem to replicate with forced CO2. So I would say the quality of carbonation, mouthfeel and foam stand are the main benefits of spunding, but the trade-off is the time it takes to serve clear beer. This is just my experience using WLP833, Imperial Harvest and 34/70, it's possible other strains clear faster and are better suited to spunding.

Regarding freshness and longevity, I always add SMB to the keg to suck up oxygen when I force carbonate, so I haven't noticed a difference in freshness between my force carbonated and spunded lagers over long periods of time (up to 1 year after kegging).

- AC

What is SMB?

 

[Bilsch]

What is SMB?

Sodium metabisulfite.

 

[doug293cz]

Time for another reminder on civility. Limit your discussion to the relevant topics. Do not discuss, or snipe at, the other posters. Posts have been edited and deleted.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[BruceH]

FWIW I appreciate all of the comments and opinions that have been expressed in this thread. Different opinions are great imo. It's how we figure things out and learn. I take what I can use now and file the rest for later when I'm smarter, lol.

Seriously, thanks for the input.

 

[schematix]

The fact is the oxygen in solution is constantly reacting with the antioxidants in the beer.. namely your fresh malt flavors and hop aromas. This process is known as staling. As the oxygen in solution is quickly being depleted by said antioxidants, the remaining O2 in the headspace is quietly going into solution until all the oxygen in the keg is gone. Along with your freshness!

Well said. Oxygen is a problem because of how reactive it is. It doesn't stick around long in pure form because of its propensity to react with so many other substances.

 

[greywolf]

The quality of my hoppy beers went way up. I serve from the same keg and they stay hoppy till kicked. Never had that with bottling.

 

[monkeymath]

I can't quite wrap my head around how the CO2 created by yeast differs from the CO2 in the bottle (except for purity, of course). I get what people are saying about oxygen ingress, but I don't understand how spunding would have an impact on the "quality" of carbonation and the mouthfeel... ?

To a simple minded man like me it seems that a molecule of CO2 has no idea where it's coming from and will behave the same regardless.

 

[cheesebach]

I can't quite wrap my head around how the CO2 created by yeast differs from the CO2 in the bottle (except for purity, of course). I get what people are saying about oxygen ingress, but I don't understand how spunding would have an impact on the "quality" of carbonation and the mouthfeel... ?

To a simple minded man like me it seems that a molecule of CO2 has no idea where it's coming from and will behave the same regardless.

I'm not at all saying that I think I could taste a difference in the same beer spunded vs. force carbonated, but I recall reading somewhere that stress on the yeast due to the higher pressure may cause them to release something (glycerol maybe?) that could have an impact on the mouthfeel and "softness" of the carbonation.

Personally, I prefer spunding whenever it's convenient as a means to limit O2 and save on CO2 refills. I still force carbonate for dry hopped beers, since I haven't found a spunding method that gives me good/consistent results when dealing with dry hops.

 

[Vale71]

I'm not at all saying that I think I could taste a difference in the same beer spunded vs. force carbonated, but I recall reading somewhere that stress on the yeast due to the higher pressure may cause them to release something (glycerol maybe?) that could have an impact on the mouthfeel and "softness" of the carbonation.

Personally, I prefer spunding whenever it's convenient as a means to limit O2 and save on CO2 refills. I still force carbonate for dry hopped beers, since I haven't found a spunding method that gives me good/consistent results when dealing with dry hops.

You hear a lot of nonsense trying to justify a non-existent difference between natural and forced carbonation. If you do it right and don't turn spunding into an actual pressure fermentation (i.e. spund with 0.5% fermentable extract left and not 5.0%) the impact on yeast-derived flavors will be zero.
As for combining spunding and dry-hopping may I point you to this thread?

 

[Surfboy66]

Personally, I prefer spunding whenever it's convenient as a means to limit O2 and save on CO2 refills. I still force carbonate for dry hopped beers, since I haven't found a spunding method that gives me good/consistent results when dealing with dry hops.

I've only done a single batch where I used a spunding valve, so have still got a lot to learn and many questions. Am I able to dry hop and use gelatin for fining in beer that is being spunded?

Thanks in advance

 

[Vale71]

That depends on what type of vessel you're doing the spunding in.
With the more advanced fermenters it is possible and you'll find a discussion of the possible solutions in the thread I mentioned in the post above yours. If you're spunding in a keg this gets trickier as it's not a good idea to open up the keg once the beer is fully carbonated. Besides the obvious oxygen ingress you run the risk of an involuntary beer shower.

 

[cheesebach]

I've only done a single batch where I used a spunding valve, so have still got a lot to learn and many questions. Am I able to dry hop and use gelatin for fining in beer that is being spunded?

Thanks in advance

Best way to do it if you’re fermenting & spunding in a keg (like myself) would be adding it using a syringe through the PRV of the purged serving/secondary keg while flowing in CO2 at a low psi through either the gas in or liquid out post. I’d guess the amount of O2 getting in through the PRV while you have it open with CO2 attached and flowing is probably small compared to the amount of O2 that’s already in your gelatin or other fining solution that you’re adding. I use a 100ml syringe I bought off amazon when I’ve done this, although planning on trying biofine clear on my next batch which I may use a smaller syringe for.

 

[Surfboy66]

Best way to do it if you’re fermenting & spunding in a keg (like myself) would be adding it using a syringe through the PRV of the purged serving/secondary keg while flowing in CO2 at a low psi through either the gas in or liquid out post. I’d guess the amount of O2 getting in through the PRV while you have it open with CO2 attached and flowing is probably small compared to the amount of O2 that’s already in your gelatin or other fining solution that you’re adding. I use a 100ml syringe I bought off amazon when I’ve done this, although planning on trying biofine clear on my next batch which I may use a smaller syringe for.

Thanks for your reply Cheesebach

Just to clarify - you syringe your gelatin into an empty, purged secondary/serving keg and then transfer the carbonated beer on top of it from the primary fermenter/keg. I assume the first few pints you then pour from the serving keg will have gelatin in?

Thanks again

 

[cheesebach]

Thanks for your reply Cheesebach

Just to clarify - you syringe your gelatin into an empty, purged secondary/serving keg and then transfer the carbonated beer on top of it from the primary fermenter/keg. I assume the first few pints you then pour from the serving keg will have gelatin in?

Thanks again

You got it. It’s generally a pint or less of gunk until I’m getting clear beer. It could be more if you don’t cold crash in the primary or accidentally stir things up a bit during the transfer. Don’t forget to flow in CO2 when you open the PRV to add the fining solution, or you’ll get more O2 ingress.

 

[Surfboy66]

You got it. It’s generally a pint or less of gunk until I’m getting clear beer. It could be more if you don’t cold crash in the primary or accidentally stir things up a bit during the transfer. Don’t forget to flow in CO2 when you open the PRV to add the fining solution, or you’ll get more O2 ingress.

Thanks I'll give it a go.
Cheers!

 

[Virginia_Ranger]

I have been doing all of my beers under pressure in a corny (or larger) and have loved the results. For dry hopping I add the hops in a stainless steel mesh container to another sanitized keg, purge the hell out of it, then do a closed transfer in to it. I will serve out of that keg for 2 weeks before transferring it again to another purged keg. VERY fresh beer

 

[Surfboy66]

I have been doing all of my beers under pressure in a corny (or larger) and have loved the results. For dry hopping I add the hops in a stainless steel mesh container to another sanitized keg, purge the hell out of it, then do a closed transfer in to it. I will serve out of that keg for 2 weeks before transferring it again to another purged keg. VERY fresh beer

Sounds like you've got your system pretty well sorted. Do you mind sharing how your fermenting schedule works. When into fermentation you pressurize, what pressure, for how long, etc?

Thanks in advance
Cheers

 

[twd000]

I have been doing all of my beers under pressure in a corny (or larger) and have loved the results. For dry hopping I add the hops in a stainless steel mesh container to another sanitized keg, purge the hell out of it, then do a closed transfer in to it. I will serve out of that keg for 2 weeks before transferring it again to another purged keg. VERY fresh beer

what's the reason for the extra transfer after 2 weeks? I have a Janet's Brown Ale with several ounces of dry hops sitting in the keg for 2 months now - still tastes great!

 

[cheesebach]

what's the reason for the extra transfer after 2 weeks? I have a Janet's Brown Ale with several ounces of dry hops sitting in the keg for 2 months now - still tastes great!

Do you use a floating dip tube when you do this? I've only tried keeping dry hops in the serving keg once. This was with a shortened dip tube with a screen surrounding it. The 1st pour of the day had an astringency to it throughout the life of the keg, which I have to assume was from the beer at the bottom being in contact with the hops. If I ever try it again, it would only be with a floating dip tube with the hop that the astringent beer would stay at the bottom and only affect the last few pours.

 

[Virginia_Ranger]

Sounds like you've got your system pretty well sorted. Do you mind sharing how your fermenting schedule works. When into fermentation you pressurize, what pressure, for how long, etc?

Thanks in advance
Cheers

Sure! I usually oxygenate, seal it up, and add the spuding valve right after pitching and let that get up to 10-14 psi naturally at temps of 63-69 F and purge it down to 5 psi through out the first day then let it crawl back up and repeat. By day 2 or so I dial the valve in around 10 psi. I do not recommend going over 15 psi early in fermentation at the 60-70 F range. I noticed I consistently had stalled or stuck fermentations when going over 15 psi at my temps.

I don't shoot for 100% carbonation from fermentation so I usually will leave it at 10 psi while fermenting, into the the cold crash, and then eventually into the serving keg (to finish by force carbing via carbonation stone).

* For my NEIPAs I will typically purge the keg fully via the PRV after 24-36 hours, hook it up to CO2 and purge it 2-3 times, then dial it in at 10 psi until I do a closed transfer onto the dry hops (in stainless steel mesh) in a purged keg around day 4-5. I let it sit at fermentation temps for 36 hours, then move it into the fridge for cold crash for 24-48 hours. It then goes into a 3rd closed transfer for serving keg / final carbing (most times containing fresh hops, for up to 2 weeks).

* Last foot note: one thing I found that made a noticeable difference is when you do the closed transfer, CO2 purge your transfer line first.