Hey Spunders, did your beer quality go up after you discoverd spunding?

[BruceH]

I mostly brew lagers. I've only been doing it for 1.5 years and I'm learning all the time.

Temp control was a big leap in beer quality and I feel that spunding is another leap. I've been brewing in a bucket for 3-4 days, then transferring to a keg with spunding valve set to 2.5 volumes of co2 for whatever temp the rest of the fermentation will be.

The results are the best lager beers I've made to date.

Anyone else?

 

[Shwagger]

Do I want to start spunding?

 

[Dgallo]

Quality shouldn’t go up strictly because of spunding, there are many practices to reduce the chances of oxidation. That being said spunding is a great way to naturally carbonate a beer which can have positive effects on mouthfeel and saves in co2

 

[Dland]

Yes, the quality went up. Finer carbonation earlier on in keg than forced carbed, and better tasting because less oxygenated beer later in keg.

 

[Blazinlow86]

No difference noticed. I have always minimized oxidization previously however. Cheers

 

[Bilsch]

Spunding made a huge difference for me especially for the lite lagers I usually brew where even the slightest oxidative damage is plainly obvious. Remember unless you are using 99.99+% pure CO2 to carbonate it's coming with oxygen that will do damage.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Spunding made a huge difference for me especially for the lite lagers I usually brew where even the slightest oxidative damage is plainly obvious. Remember unless you are using 99.99+% pure CO2 to carbonate it's coming with oxygen that will do damage.

^^This +1.

 

[Shwagger]

Are a lot of people force carbing? I always natural carb with a sugar of some sort. Id dint realize force carbing was so prevalent. Seemed silly to me when waiting a couple of weeks and you have carbonation

 

[brewbama]

I didn’t notice a difference with light lagers or any other beer.

However, I am a production brewer. I don’t keep a keezer full of multiple beers on tap. I drink what I brew fairly quickly one keg after another on a fairly tight brew day to tap schedule.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm just getting into kegging and I can't wait to start fermenting under pressure, thanks for the inspirational thread!!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Are a lot of people force carbing?

92.4% of keggers force carbonate their beer.

Yes, I made up that figure. I'm confident it's the clear majority though.

 

[artichoke]

I've found that spunded lagers take a long time to clear (usually several months), but the reward is that they exhibit a wonderful, fine, and moussey carbonation and foam stand I can't seem to replicate with forced CO2. So I would say the quality of carbonation, mouthfeel and foam stand are the main benefits of spunding, but the trade-off is the time it takes to serve clear beer. This is just my experience using WLP833, Imperial Harvest and 34/70, it's possible other strains clear faster and are better suited to spunding.

Regarding freshness and longevity, I always add SMB to the keg to suck up oxygen when I force carbonate, so I haven't noticed a difference in freshness between my force carbonated and spunded lagers over long periods of time (up to 1 year after kegging).

- AC

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I've found that spunded lagers take a long time to clear (usually several months),

Interesting. Mine clear reasonably fast, but take a bit longer to finish fermenting once they're under pressure. Do you raise the temperature once you start spunding? Could the lack of clearing be from dropping to lagering temperatures with fermentables still remaining (thus, yeast will stay in suspension slowly working away)? I've spunded W34/70, S23 and WY2042 with normal clearing times. Using a traditional lagering schedule (ferment cool, drop to lagering with a few points of gravity left, no diacetyl rest) I've found lagers take a while to clear.

 

[Vale71]

Spunding made a huge difference for me especially for the lite lagers I usually brew where even the slightest oxidative damage is plainly obvious. Remember unless you are using 99.99+% pure CO2 to carbonate it's coming with oxygen that will do damage.

Yeah, as much as 50 ppm if you get the worst quality food-grade CO2, as low as 20 ppm if you get the best. Oh the horror...

 

[artichoke]

Interesting. Mine clear reasonably fast, but take a bit longer to finish fermenting once they're under pressure. Do you raise the temperature once you start spunding? Could the lack of clearing be from dropping to lagering temperatures with fermentables still remaining (thus, yeast will stay in suspension slowly working away)? I've spunded W34/70, S23 and WY2042 with normal clearing times. Using a traditional lagering schedule (ferment cool, drop to lagering with a few points of gravity left, no diacetyl rest) I've found lagers take a while to clear.

I ferment around 10C and then spund at ~3-4C with around 1 plato / 4 points of extract remaining, as determined in advance using a fast ferment test. So I think you're right, at those temperatures the yeast need time to finish the job and drop out and the beer takes longer to clear. Although it's a bit of a drag waiting for the beer to clear, it's fun to sample along the way and experience how the beer changes over time.

 

[brewbama]

I've found that spunded lagers take a long time to clear (usually several months), but the reward is that they exhibit a wonderful, fine, and moussey carbonation and foam stand I can't seem to replicate with forced CO2. So I would say the quality of carbonation, mouthfeel and foam stand are the main benefits of spunding, but the trade-off is the time it takes to serve clear beer. This is just my experience using WLP833, Imperial Harvest and 34/70, it's possible other strains clear faster and are better suited to spunding.

Regarding freshness and longevity, I always add SMB to the keg to suck up oxygen when I force carbonate, so I haven't noticed a difference in freshness between my force carbonated and spunded lagers over long periods of time (up to 1 year after kegging).

- AC

What’s your dosage rate for SMB to the keg?

 

[artichoke]

What’s your dosage rate for SMB to the keg?

Usually 0.3 - 0.4 g SMB into 19L so approximately 15-20 ppm.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Pardon my lack of knowledge here, what is SMB? Thanks.

 

[Shwagger]

Reading up more, I like being able to ensure pressure is set at what I want when carbing naturally after being kegged. Set the valve and let it carb up. Tap, chill, go!

Might have to build a sounding valve. As it stands now, I use charts and such but its not always accurate. And i never force carb

 

[Vale71]

Pardon my lack of knowledge here, what is SMB? Thanks.

Sodium metabisulfite. It's a synonim for "something that has no place in beer".

 

[Mer-man]

Reading up more, I like being able to ensure pressure is set at what I want when carbing naturally after being kegged. Set the valve and let it carb up. Tap, chill, go!

Might have to build a sounding valve. As it stands now, I use charts and such but its not always accurate. And i never force carb

Check out the BlowTie.

I like spunding for longevity of quality and for speed of carbonation.

 

[Robert65]

Check out the BlowTie.

+1

I've built several variable PRV assemblies aka spunding valves using the spring poppet type valves and they are very unreliable and difficult to precisely control, and brass parts will corrode in the presence of the moisture and carbonic acid gassing off. I finally tried the Blow Tie, and assembly with the Kegland K-lok gauge and Duotight fittings was super easy, and the unit is far, far superior. Wish I hadn't wasted time and money on others.

 

[Jayjay1976]

here on planet earth at least, some amount of oxygen is natural in beer.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Wait, you guys are putting SMB in at kegging? That's a terrible idea! Total sulfur bomb if you're not careful.

But yes, my spunded beers are better: no oxidative damage, better foam, but longer to clear (no gelatin or other finings with low-O2-focused spunding).

 

[Bilsch]

Yeah, as much as 50 ppm if you get the worst quality food-grade CO2, as low as 20 ppm if you get the best. Oh the horror...

Hold on.. let me check your math... yes one seems to be 2.5 times greater than the other.
Maybe you can't taste the difference or care if you did but others can and do. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the facts. O2 damages beer.

And I don't know where you are getting your information regarding the 'best' grade of CO2. The best, laser grade, has 0 ppm oxygen, research grade has typically 10ppm or less and 15ppm is easy enough to find as well. I just recently purchased a K bottle (420cuft) of 10ppm research grade and the price is roughly similar to buying food and beverage grade in 20lb lots.

 

[brewbama]

[emoji897]

 

[doug293cz]

Hold on.. let me check your math... yes one seems to be 2.5 times greater than the other.
Maybe you can't taste the difference or care if you did but others can and do. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the facts. O2 damages beer.
View attachment 643948

And I don't know where you are getting your information regarding the 'best' grade of CO2. The best, laser grade, has 0 ppm oxygen, research grade has typically 10ppm or less and 15ppm is easy enough to find as well. I just recently purchased a K bottle (420cuft) of 10ppm research grade and the price is roughly similar to buying in 20lb lots.

Is the chart based on measurements of DO in beer after force carbonation with CO2 with the given O2 content, or based on calculations. If based on calculations, what are the assumptions underpinning the calculations?

Brew on

 

[Jayjay1976]

I prefer my beers with daddy issues. A few ppm of o2 doesn't ruin it for me, rather it puts it in my league so to speak. IMHO, lower your standards a notch and go home with a delicious beer every night. Or go ahead and sit alone in your basement with your charts and tables, lamenting every stray oxygen molecule, the choice is yours.

 

[schematix]

Significant improvement, but it can be challenging. Takes a few tries to get it dialed in. Worth it.

 

[Vale71]

Hold on.. let me check your math... yes one seems to be 2.5 times greater than the other.
Maybe you can't taste the difference or care if you did but others can and do. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the facts. O2 damages beer.
View attachment 643948

And I don't know where you are getting your information regarding the 'best' grade of CO2. The best, laser grade, has 0 ppm oxygen, research grade has typically 10ppm or less and 15ppm is easy enough to find as well. I just recently purchased a K bottle (420cuft) of 10ppm research grade and the price is roughly similar to buying food and beverage grade in 20lb lots.

I said "best food grade" and you can download the spec sheets from most manufacturers yourself through this thing called "the Internet". But of course you won't because it doesn't fit your scaremongering agenda...