HERMS under pressure to increase efficiency

[G-Lover]

This weekend I plan on prototyping an idea I had. I'm going to set a 110V 1500W heating element in a black pipe with a copper tube coil inside. My theory is that by sealing water inside I can superheat the HERMS water making better use of energy.

I'm working on adding a safety release valve from a corney keg before hand for safety...obviously.

The idea seems really simple to me in theory so I wonder why it hasn't been done before? Aside from the usual dangers of steam burns and a steam punk pipe bomb, why hasn't this really been discussed before? The closest I've seen is open flash boilers and steam mashing.

Please advice...my children would appreciate it if you told me how I'm being a dangerous idiot before this weekend.

 

[Walker]

Are you using a very short piece of copper tubing or something?

For me, with a 25' 3/8" coil, the water in my HERMS is only a couple degrees higher than my mash temp. If I wanted to maintain my mash temp while trying to super-heat the water, I would have to get a pump with a much higher flow rate or use a much shorter piece of copper.

 

[G-Lover]

I hope to make it compact yes. I'm guessing based on your response is that necessity has not bred the need for such a thing.

My idea is that water would not be cycled through the HERMS outer shell, it would not be converted to steam. Strike/sparge water would still move through the coil inside the shell and I've thought it might double up as a external calandria.

A heating element that might seem underpowered, through the use of the relationship of heat & pressure, may become very usable.

 

[Catt22]

Be sure to keep up with your life insurance premiums.

 

[G-Lover]

Catt22, That and an emphatic "no!" Is exactly what my wife told me when I described how I wanted to refine titanium from white paint.

 

[diatonic]

I think that the reason this has never really been attempted is that the typical HERMS system uses the HLT for the heat source. People either maintain the HLT a few degrees over target mash temp & recirculate continuously, or set it to the temp of sparge water and recirculate only as necessary to maintain mash temp.

You'd never sparge hotter than 170F, so heating a bunch of water > 212F doesn't seem terribly efficient. If you sparge too hot you'll get off-flavors.

 

[G-Lover]

I plan on using a PID controller to keep mash and sparge temps appropriate and super heating during the boil. Pros report a very intense boil and 10% evaportaion rates in a third less time.

 

[diatonic]

I plan on using a PID controller to keep mash and sparge temps appropriate and super heating during the boil. Pros report a very intense boil and 10% evaportaion rates in a third less time.

I use a PID controller for my HLT to keep mash temps appropriate too. I don't understand how this superheating applies to your boil. Are you using a steam jacketed kettle or something?

 

[G-Lover]

I don't understand how this superheating applies to your boil. Are you using a steam jacketed kettle or something?

Using a calandria is just a more efficient way to get a rolling, intense boil. Cycling the wort through the superheated coil and into a kettle "top hat" will speed up/enhance the positive properties of the boil in less time through a thermosiphon action and high heating phase.

I guess I could use the steam to clean something but that's not my goal.

 

[diatonic]

Using a calandria is just a more efficient way to get a rolling, intense boil. Cycling the wort through the superheated coil and into a kettle "top hat" will speed up/enhance the positive properties of the boil in less time through a thermosiphon action and high heating phase.

I guess I could use the steam to clean something but that's not my goal.

I know what a calandria is, you just never mentioned that you wanted to use one. What it has to do with HERMS still eludes me.

 

[Catt22]

Using a calandria is just a more efficient way to get a rolling, intense boil. Cycling the wort through the superheated coil and into a kettle "top hat" will speed up/enhance the positive properties of the boil in less time through a thermosiphon action and high heating phase.

I guess I could use the steam to clean something but that's not my goal.

It may very well get you to a boil faster, but I'm much less than convinced that it will speed up or enhance the positive properties of the boil (whatever that means). The bottom line seems to be that there may be some energy savings to be had and maybe a higher boil off rate, but other than that I'm not seeing a big advantage to going this route. The 110v element will likely not provide enough heat. IIRC, the big boys go with steam jacketed kettles not only for the improved efficiency, but because there are no practical or efficient heating alternatives for very large boil kettles. OTOH, I could be completely wrong. It would not be the first time.

 

[G-Lover]

I know what a calandria is, you just never mentioned that you wanted to use one. What it has to do with HERMS still eludes me.

I've thought it might double up as an external calandria.

The sealed pressurized heat exchange widget could serve double duty as a HERMS and external calandria with the proper control. One heating element, two over engineered brewing improvements is my hope.

 

[G-Lover]

The big boys also use calandria's. The energy savings and higher boil off rate are the goal, as well as using one element for two purposes.

If I remember correctly, and I might not, by putting the heating element in a sealed container I should increase it's effectiveness through less heat loss (no escaping steam) and pressure. I'm hoping it's possible to use what seems like low powered heating elements to make phenomenal temperatures.

 

[mattd2]

The big boys also use calandria's. The energy savings and higher boil off rate are the goal, as well as using one element for two purposes.

If I remember correctly, and I might not, by putting the heating element in a sealed container I should increase it's effectiveness through less heat loss (no escaping steam) and pressure. I'm hoping it's possible to use what seems like low powered heating elements to make phenomenal temperatures.

On the using this for boiling (if I understood that right) you would still be limited to the size of your element. A 1500 w element is still 1500 w no matter how you use it. I can't see how you would get any more efficient than sticking the thing straight it the kettle. The dual purpose idea seems more hassle than it's worth. I would imagine you would get more heat loss as there is not too much steam escaping at 170 and with the super heated pipe you would get more radiant heat loss (and isn't that relationship ^4 with respects to temperature and energy?). Just my thoughts

I'm hoping it's possible to use what seems like low powered heating elements to make phenomenal temperatures.

But what is the point of making phenomenal temperatures when it is in such a small volume, the energy store in that "temperture" will be quickly used up as there would be hardly any mass (or it would take a long to to get to those temperatures with a low powered heating element).

AFAIK large plants use steam for heating, etc. because it allows them to have a centralised boiler making it more effecient in terms of overall power usage and maintenance and man power resourcing.

 

[G-Lover]

A 1500 w element is still 1500 w no matter how you use it. I can't see how you would get any more efficient than sticking the thing straight it the kettle.

The energy put into this limitedly closed system will not escape as vapor and of course I plan to reduce the radiant heat loss with insulation. I believe it will be better than sticking the element straight in the wort because the contents will be under pressure and able to reach higher temperatures. It is my understanding that is the principle behind pressure cookers.

But what is the point of making phenomenal temperatures when it is in such a small volume, the energy store in that "temperture" will be quickly used up as there would be hardly any mass

I believe [I'm not out of hand committed to the belief, which is why I'm prototyping it] that if I can get some amount of water to say, theoretically 600F the wort going in wouldn't stay below 212F for long, would vaporize and leave. Essentially I think I'll be able to get the water so heated that thermal loss due to heating the coil will be insignificant.

 

[mattd2]

The energy put into this limitedly closed system will not escape as vapor and of course I plan to reduce the radiant heat loss with insulation. I believe it will be better than sticking the element straight in the wort because the contents will be under pressure and able to reach higher temperatures. It is my understanding that is the principle behind pressure cookers.

But what you are missing is with a 1500 w element you can only put energy (heat) into the system at a rate of 1500 w. you cannot draw energy out at a rate faster than 1500 w or the system will cool down. If you made the boiler tank bigger (more water mass) you could comprimise with having the 1500 w element run full time and you would effectivly be storing energy/heat as superheated steam to draw from in short bursts.

I believe [I'm not out of hand committed to the belief, which is why I'm prototyping it] that if I can get some amount of water to say, theoretically 600F the wort going in wouldn't stay below 212F for long, would vaporize and leave. Essentially I think I'll be able to get the water so heated that thermal loss due to heating the coil will be insignificant.

I don't understand what you are meaning by "Essentially I think I'll be able to get the water so heated that thermal loss due to heating the coil will be insignificant." If it was to my comment of mass, i meant the mass of the water/steam not the actual tube/equipment. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[Catt22]

I believe [I'm not out of hand committed to the belief, which is why I'm prototyping it] that if I can get some amount of water to say, theoretically 600F the wort going in wouldn't stay below 212F for long, would vaporize and leave. Essentially I think I'll be able to get the water so heated that thermal loss due to heating the coil will be insignificant.

Yikes! 600 deg F???. You might want to check the available tables that show the temperature/pressure relationship of superheated steam. The 600 deg F would exceed 1,000 PSIG according to this chart:

http://www.indpipe.com/images/PDF/steam_temperature_pressure_table.pdf

Matter of fact, the chart only goes up to 1,000 PSIG @ 546.4 deg F. There's probably a good reason for that. IIRC, it's also illegal to run an un-certified and unlicensed pressure vessel at very high pressures such as you are planning to build. Might be something to look into before embarking on this project for real. Superheated steam is seriously dangerous if you don't know exactly what you are doing, and I do mean exactly.

 

[G-Lover]

http://www.indpipe.com/images/PDF/steam_temperature_pressure_table.pdf

Matter of fact, the chart only goes up to 1,000 PSIG @ 546.4 deg F. There's probably a good reason for that. IIRC, it's also illegal to run an un-certified and unlicensed pressure vessel at very high pressures such as you are planning to build. Might be something to look into before embarking on this project for real. Superheated steam is seriously dangerous if you don't know exactly what you are doing, and I do mean exactly.

This is very useful information, thank you. I don't seriously expect to reach 600F, I am planning on putting a corney keg pressure relief stem into it. How much PSI are those rated for?

 

[Catt22]

This is very useful information, thank you. I don't seriously expect to reach 600F, I am planning on putting a corney keg pressure relief stem into it. How much PSI are those rated for?

IIRC, the Cornelius kegs are rated for up to 130 psi, so the pressure relief valve will operate at considerably less than that max working pressure. The bigger issue is that the PV valves are made of plastic and high temperatures will weaken it's strength dramatically. The valves would probably soften and fail at a relatively low temperature. I would want to use a combination pressure/temperature relief valve specifically designed for this type of application. Not only that, but I would want some kind of built in redundancy for the pressure relief valves. When I was very young, I met an old timer who repaired steam locomotive boilers. He told me enough horror stories about working with superheated steam to scare the hell out of me for a life time. It doesn't help that it's invisible.

 

[G-Lover]

Cornelius kegs are rated for up to 130 psi, so the pressure relief valve will operate at considerably less than that max working pressure. The bigger issue is that the PV valves are made of plastic and high temperatures will weaken it's strength dramatically.

Good to know. Also, I don't plan on standing anywhere near this thing during testing. Think I'm going to shove it in a cargo container.

 

[kladue]

While I admire the enthusiasm for this approach, you are missing the hard rules of physics, the boil will only go as fast as the heat source can drive it. 5500 watt element is not going to be any different in a side chamber than directly in the boil kettle, without forced circulation of liquid around the element and coil it will definitely be much less. The method you propose is not the same as tubing exposed to 100 PSI steam, at best it will drive the water out and burn the element without exploding, at worst you have became a contestant for the darwin awards and a front page column.
I work with boilers from 100kbtu residential to 2,000 PSI power boilers, electric steam generation units into multi megawatt range, and process control, to date I have never seen something like this proposed or built, such a small volume with that much wattage will not be controllable and most likely will blow up before the controls can respond even if you try to use a corny keg safety valve.

 

[ChemEBeer]

I hate to revive an old thread, but I found this via google and I'm worried that no one else has explicitly stated how dangerous this is. There is a technical term for what the OP is suggesting to build, that technical term is "bomb" The pressures inside that vessel will rapidly find an exit. either the copper coil will fail, the heating element seal will fail, or the pipe will fail.

Amateurs should never, ever try to heat an enclosed volume of water. Even professionally designed, controlled and tested boilers fail, and they can and do kill people.

 

[stamandster]

If you're going to seal something to super heat it why not just use oil and make it an on demand heater?

And thanks for the necro post

 

[acidrain]

I hate to revive an old thread, but I found this via google and I'm worried that no one else has explicitly stated how dangerous this is. There is a technical term for what the OP is suggesting to build, that technical term is "bomb" The pressures inside that vessel will rapidly find an exit. either the copper coil will fail, the heating element seal will fail, or the pipe will fail.

Amateurs should never, ever try to heat an enclosed volume of water. Even professionally designed, controlled and tested boilers fail, and they can and do kill people.

Oh my god... you signed up to bring back a 3 year old pipe dream?
Are you new to the internet?
First question I would have asked is if the OP has ever even brewed beer before.

 

[mattd2]

Oh my god... you signed up to bring back a 3 year old pipe dream?
Are you new to the internet?
First question I would have asked is if the OP has ever even brewed beer before.

A bit harsh acid... but...
ChemEBeer - amateurs regularly heat enclosed volumes of water, without even realising it. Most people would not think twice about using a pressure cooker.
The problem with the OP is he seemed to dive right in without learning the basics - demonstrated by his goals to "make phenomenal temperatures of 600°F", using the term superheated where most likely you would want saturated steam (better for heat transfer).
I want to know if this went any further, but it looks like the OP stopped posting on here shortly after this... maybe you were right ChemEBeer

 

[biertourist]

Anyone remember the scene from the movie "BioDome" where they have to make an air filter from a million cigarette butt filters? "..."makin' a filter... makin' a filter..."

Except this time it's: "Makin' a pipe bomb... makin' a pipe bomb"

+1 to completing that mandatory physical to increase your life insurance to $1 million+ because it sounds like you're going to be cashing it in soon if anything in this plan goes wrong.


Inscribed on his tombstone forever: "At least I got a 10% increase in my efficiency!"


Adam