Herms recirc and Grainbed issues

[bornandraisedlv]

So I have been having some issues with getting a good flow and at times any flow out of my tun and through my herms. I’m getting lots of grain through my false that does settled out at right around 30-40 mins into my mash. But the entire mash I am trying to fix very low flow out of the tun coupled with lots of air in the hoses. My mash consistency is like loose oatmeal, or looser and there is clearly enough wort in the tun that there shouldn’t be flow issues. I’ve tried using shorter hoses thinking maybe my pump was losing pressure through the hoses. That didn’t help. I have a bleed valve set on the out side of my pump and the head is in the correct orientation. I can bleed the air and sometimes that kills any flow out of the at all, sometimes it help, but only for a minute and then right back to a trickle out of the tun that can’t event keep my hose filled with wort. I’ve tried flushing the hoses with hot sparge water and then switching back to normal ops, that didn’t work. I’ve stirred the grain bed thinking it was stuck. Let it sit for 10 mins and went back to recirc and that didn’t work.

My mill is set at .035” as suggested by the manufacturer of my false and the grain is still making it through my false. So I am thinking my grain, though mill set right, is to fine. I’ve read that milling to fast can create a finer than desired crush. My drill is of the non variable speed sorts, so I am in manual mode but going pretty much as slow as I can go.

I am thinking that I am going to go to .040 on my next batch and see if this helps.

Any suggestions on something I’ve missed?

 

[SoCal-Doug]

interesting one... typically my system settles out within 5 minutes or so. here's a few things to check

head height. pumps can only pump so high. is this one of those systems with long hoses and the pump is on the ground or well below the herms coil?

type of false bottom. holes too small or not sealed well? hopefully not one of those little screen tube gizmos.

mash water quantity. I typically have 1 to 2 inches above the grain bed full time when recirculating. the fluid over the grain is very clear after it settles in. going full flow recirculation with 1/2" ID hose is no problem with a chugger, even on a 10 gallon batch.

air leak somewhere. one little leak or pin hole can cause it to suck air. there should be no air going through the pump. pump head seal bad? can you plug the output and find any drips?

pump head / impellor: something stuck in there? does it sound funny? impellor broken? magnetic coupling breaking free?

you should have no problem at .035" gap. maybe with wheat, run some rice hills.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

interesting one... typically my system settles out within 5 minutes or so. here's a few things to check

head height. pumps can only pump so high. is this one of those systems with long hoses and the pump is on the ground or well below the herms coil?

Haven’t thought of this being an issue but yes, brewing in the kitchen until the tundra thaws.... so hlt and tun on stove, pump on kitchen floor, 5’ hoses 1/2”id. It’s not a matter of the pump pushing the fluid it has provided to it, does this just fine. It’s just not getting enough fluid to it from the tun.

type of false bottom. holes too small? hopefully not one of those little screen tube gizmos.

it’s a jaybird, center pick up with 1/2” pick up tube. They told me they run .035 all day with it and have no issues, so again I think it’s my crush.

mash water quantity. I typically have 1 to 2 inches above the grain bed full time when recirculating. the fluid over the grain is very clear after it settles in. going full flow recirculation with 1/2" ID hose is no problem with a chugger, even on a 10 gallon batch.

Same here actually, a good 2”-3” of clear wort on top once the bed has settled. I’m running a Chugger with 1/2” ID and have to close down the valve on it to about a 1/4 open just to keep the pump primed.

air leak somewhere. one little leak or pin hole can cause it to suck air. there should be no air going through the pump. pump head seal bad? can you plug the output and find any drips?

I don’t think it’s an air leak as I can run this set up with water and have no issues, even when restricting flow. I was thinking this as well. I have zero leaks anywhere in my entire set up actually, well at the moment at least.

pump head / impellor: something stuck in there? does it sound funny? impellor broken? magnetic coupling breaking free?

I will pull this apart tonight and take a look and see. Pump seems to be working just fine, no odd sounds or anything like that. And again works fine using just water in the same set up.

you should have no problem at .035" gap. maybe with wheat, run some rice hills.

forgot to mention I run .5 lb of rice hulls in my batches.

So I am thinking either I have no idea how to use a feeler gauge to set my mill or the way I am using my mill is creating a smaller crush than what I want.

Thanks for all of the suggestions!

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Everything sounds good. Hmmmm.

I also run hulls in most of my brews. I find I get a tiny bit better efficiency and it makes me feel better for the dollar spent As far as feeler gages, it's just like gapping a spark plug. The gauge should just touch the rollers and not be difficult to insert or remove. If you are scratching the gauge, its probably too tight. Be sure to check it again after tightening to be sure it didnt creep in smaller when you torqued down the screws. You might need to go wider pre-tightening.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Everything sounds good. Hmmmm.

I also run hulls in most of my brews. I find I get a tiny bit better efficiency and it makes me feel better for the dollar spent As far as feeler gages, it's just like gapping a spark plug. The gauge should just touch the rollers and not be difficult to insert or remove. If you are scratching the gauge, its probably too tight. Be sure to check it again after tightening to be sure it didnt creep in smaller when you torqued down the screws. You might need to go wider pre-tightening.

Yeah fits in there just perfectly, doesn’t make the rollers roll and can slide it from end to end no issues. So I feel pretty good about the gap setting.

Only thing I can really think of is the crush and maybe I’m going to slow?

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Probably not. I have a 2 speed dewalt screw gun for my 2 roller monster mill. I put it on low speed and let-r-rip through the grain. Works fine.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

My drill isn’t variable speed so I sit there and pull the trigger, takes me about 10mins to crush 12lbs of grain. Drill going slow enough to make out the writing on the bit I use.

Maybe not the best picture to show crush as it’s from last nights brew...

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Hard to tell the flour content when it's wet, but the "chunk" size looks totally fine to me. The husks look fairly intact. I could be wrong in interpreting the picture, but it looks like a lot of hulls. Typically i'll use 1/3 to 1/2 pound for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Yeah was 1/2 a pound of hulls. I will say that at the end of my sparge there was a layer of flour covering the grain bed completely so that you couldn’t see any grain.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Hmm a thought just came to mind. My pick up tube might be an issue. I cut it short and am using some hose to connect to a barb. It’s a pretty poor attempt and I am planning on just ordering a custom one so that it’s on a compression fitting. Maybe once there is grain in there it’s creating an issue?

 

[jcav]

I have an e-herms and in the beginning I had some grain get through the false bottom also. I always use rice hulls on every batch, it also helps with keeping an even temperature throughout the grain bed in the mash. I ordered this level three stand from Jaybird after a few batches and this little bad boy solved the problem. No more slowed down recirculating, no more slow anything. I actually recirculate at full open bore and do not restrict the ball valve at all. Here is a link. https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Level-3_15-Inch_FB_Stand.html

Put one under your false bottom and put your dip tube in the center of it. It just might solve your problem. It solved mine. Hope this helps.....

John

 

[bornandraisedlv]

I have an e-herms and in the beginning I had some grain get through the false bottom also. I always use rice hulls on every batch, it also helps with keeping an even temperature throughout the grain bed in the mash. I ordered this level three stand from Jaybird after a few batches and this little bad boy solved the problem. No more slowed down recirculating, no more slow anything. I actually recirculate at full open bore and do not restrict the ball valve at all. Here is a link. https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Level-3_15-Inch_FB_Stand.html

Put one under your false bottom and put your dip tube in the center of it. It just might solve your problem. It solved mine. Hope this helps.....

John

Interesting, I had them make my false so that it sits only 1/2” off of the bottom of my tun due to where the holes are drilled. I might see if adding one of these will help.

 

[jcav]

Yea give them a call and they will take care of you. They can cut it down to any size thickness you need also. It flat out works and no issues. I also switched to center inlet pump heads instead of the inline ones. This also is a big help in recirculating with no issues. So the combination of the two is what made my system rock. Good luck!

John

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Yea give them a call and they will take care of you. They can cut it down to any size thickness you need also. It flat out works and no issues. I also switched to center inlet pump heads instead of the inline ones. This also is a big help in recirculating with no issues. So the combination of the two is what made my system rock. Good luck!

John

Cool thanks. Yeah I just emailed them. They have been great in giving me tips and suggestions! Figured I would ask on here to and see if anyone else had similar issues.

 

[day_trippr]

I run a 3v2p herms rig and I usually start recirculating ~5 minutes after dough-in directly back to the top of the mash (cutting out the hex) for ~5 minutes to gather up what few bits made it through the false bottom. Then I switch in the hex for the duration of the mash. Imo if there's still debris in a mash loop after 10 minutes of recirculation the FB isn't doing it's job.

30 minutes is crazy. I'd be most kerfuffled!

I'd solve that issue first, and hope it solves a bunch of other operational problems. And take the valves and pump heads apart and clean out any packed grain bits...

Cheers!

 

[bornandraisedlv]

I run a 3v2p herms rig and I usually start recirculating ~5 minutes after dough-in directly back to the top of the mash (cutting out the hex) for ~5 minutes to gather up what few bits made it through the false bottom. Then I switch in the hex for the duration of the mash. Imo if there's still debris in a mash loop after 10 minutes of recirculation the FB isn't doing it's job.

30 minutes is crazy. I'd be most kerfuffled!

I'd solve that issue first, and hope it solves a bunch of other operational problems. And take the valves and pump heads apart and clean out any packed grain bits...

Cheers!

My first goal is to fix the grain making it through, I do think that in fixing that it will fix the flow issues. I still think that I am crushing to fine. I get much more flour like powder using this mill then I ever did at the local shop. And I get a layer of sediment/flour on top of the grain bed that covers the grain by the end of sparging. I think my mash bed is just too dense and is creating vacuum in the hose between the pump head and tun.

Still not sure about the air....

I’m going to mill at .040 next batch and see how that goes. I’ve also sent an email back out to NorCal and I am sure they will have some more input as well.

 

[carrsgarage]

I had/have a similar issue with both mash and plain water. I've got a false bottom with a pickup in the center which connects to the bung in the side of the kettle with a length of hose. Three first time I ran the thing, I used plain water and had a lots of air in the hose running from the Mash Tun down to the pump. I had similar problems with grain in the MT, but I figured out my issue, just not a great way to fix it.

The problem is that the center pickup is higher than the bung and the hose that connects the two is a smaller diameter than the hose that runs to the pump. Air gets trapped between the center pickup and the bung, causing mediocre flow.

I have found that if I squeeze the pump hose several times when I first started circulating, it works out all of the air and I have perfect flow for the rest of my brew day.

Give it a shot, it might work for you!

 

[bornandraisedlv]

So decided to take a look at my tun over a few pints and decided to start measuring for my custom pick up tube. In measuring I noticed that the barb I was using on my rigged set up looked much smaller than I thought it was. Pulled it off and turns out I had a 1/4” barb on there! Doh!

Pulled it off, put the compression fitting as my bulkhead to my ball valve, cut a short length of 1/2” id silicon hose and put that on my pick up tube.

I think I was pulling the air out of solution by using that 1/4” barb and creating a vacuum in my hose to the pump.

Thinking back, I’ve never had an issue with flow out of the tun when fly sparging, even through that 1/4” barb as it was just gravity pulling the wort into my kettle. A little different when I was adding the pressure from the pump. This also explains why it worked with just water as there was no resistance created by the mash bed. At least this is what I am telling myself....

I do think in into something here though.

This is the new set up with all 1/2” id from tun out to tun in.

This is what it was going though previously

 

[Vale71]

Have you tried wet conditioning the malt before milling? I too had terrible issues with slow or stuck flow in my RIMS at the beginning, as I started conditioning the malt the crush has improved noticeably and since then I haven't had a single issue.

 

[day_trippr]

Ok, that picture reveals the root cause of all the grain in circulation. That's a killer gap.
I would consider buying a length of 1/2" OD 1/16" wall silicone tubing sufficient to wrap the circumference of the FB, run a length-wise split down one side, slide it over the edge of the FB, trim the ends so they meet nicely, then tuck the FB in the kettle (wet the tubing and kettle wall first if it's going to be a tight fit).

I did something similar on my original 10g Rubbermaid and I never got any grain around the FB again...

Cheers!

 

[SoCal-Doug]

day tripper beat me to it. its obvious now where the grain bits are coming from and why a vorlauf doesnt establish itself. its gonna be tricky sealing a split tube around those weldless fittings.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Ahh good point. Not the best scenario trying to fit that on there. Did a little search for the 1/2” ID with 1/16” thick walls and didn’t really find much. However I was thinking I might be able to buy 2 of the gaskets for the ssbrewtech false bottom and make that work a little easier than regular silicon hose. It does say on their site that it does not work with NorCal false bottoms, I wonder if it is the circumference of the gasket that they say this?

https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/gasket-mash-tun-fb-silicone

Doing an Amazon search I found this hose that I will probably get if the gasket thing doesn’t seem like it will work.

Food Grade Silicone Tube 3/8 inch Electrical Water Heat Resistant Hose for Wine Making ID 10mm OD 14mm https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06WP5K3JY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[RPh_Guy]

hopefully not one of those little screen tube gizmos.

Will this not work well for recirculation?

 

[day_trippr]

Note I wrote "1/2" OD" tubing. I use it on my autosparge return. Not hard to find...

Cheers!

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Note I wrote "1/2" OD" tubing. I use it on my autosparge return. Not hard to find...

Cheers!

Hmm still not having luck finding 1/2” od with 1/16” walls. Closest I’ve found is 10mm ID with 13mm OD

 

[wilserbrewer]

Obviously a biased solution, many have found lining the mash tun with a BIAB bag eliminates any grain passing the FB.

Some claim this makes clean up easier as well.

I’ve never done it myself, was merely the enabler lol

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Obviously a biased solution, many have found lining the mash tun with a BIAB bag eliminates any grain passing the FB.

Some claim this makes clean up easier as well.

I’ve never done it myself, was merely the enabler lol

Interestingly enough I have one of your bags that I haven’t used yet... I would have to rig it to work around my return inlet. If it turns into to much of a hassle to use the silicone hose I will test it with your back and if that works will order a new one that has a slit in it for my return.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Obviously a biased solution, many have found lining the mash tun with a BIAB bag eliminates any grain passing the FB.

Some claim this makes clean up easier as well.

I’ve never done it myself, was merely the enabler lol

Love it But us non-bag recirculating folks don't have issues because if the false bottom seals within a 16th of an inch or so, the vorlauf is a perfect filter and the wort is absolutely clear in minutes.

I have however thought many times about the ease of cleanup concept. I could scoop some out to lighten the load, then pull the bag. There is much merit in that.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Found the right hose. Will install that and report back here regarding my next brew day, 2 Friday’s from this past Friday.

I have a good feeling about fixing that mash out barb from 1/4” ID to 1/2” ID so my entire loop is all 1/2” and thanks to the suggestion in regards to the silicon hose making a seal.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Good catch on the 1/4" fitting. An entire system only flows only as well as its smallest hole. I think you'll be very happy with the results on your next brew. I'm guessing within 5 or 7 minutes your wort is crystal clear and flowing well. I still recommend you leave your mill at .030 to .035. Your efficiency will be rewarded.