HERMs Output Temp

[Tiber_Brew]

A total of 4f in what time period? What kind of flow rate are you using through the HEX?

-4°F of the thermodynamic system in real time, and with recirculating wort heated +4°F from the HEX, the net change in mash temperature is zero (thus, it being in "dynamic equilibrium"). "4°F" isn't an accumulative total over an amount of time.

I don't know the quantitative flow rate, but my ball valve is about 50% open during recirculation using a March 809 pump.

 

[orangehero]

So it's clear, you are actually measuring the wort coming out of the HEX as equal to the HLT temp?

Then the top and bottom of the mash are at your desired temp as well as the wort coming out of the tun?

 

[dye4me]

Could you guys quit posting in this thread I don't want to turn off hbt notifications but this has gotten out of hand.from this point just state your herms output temp or go start another thread thanks

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Tiber_brew. I like your tenacity!

Haha, thanks. Sometimes I wonder why I bother...but I enjoy it ultimately. A handful of people on HBT know me personally, and none of them are in this thread. But, if you knew me, it would explain a lot. And it would be evident that none of this is personal, by the way. I'm so analytical and detail oriented, to the point that it annoys my non-engineering friends, but pleases bosses/co-workers.

I think we get to the same place at the same time. If my wort is returning to my mash at my target temp my mash will follow.

I'm sorry to say, but no, it won't. Unless your entire system is operating in adiabatic conditions (which I promise you it's not), your mash temp will never reach the temperature of the wort leaving your HEX.

Yes there is a delta we need to consider.

If you can admit this, why declare the temperature of your wort leaving the HEX as your your mash temp?

You have a custom system that (correct me if I'm wrong you built from scratch. Your a smart guy with some sort of engineering background.

You are correct. I did build my system from scratch and designed my process from square one, instead of blindly copying someone else's (certainly no offense to those that do). And yes, I have a mechanical engineering degree, with 6 years experience in aerospace engineering.

I built my system around a chef's knowledge which is only concerned with time and temperature. When I built mine I didn't even know what a HERMS system was! I only wanted to control my wort temp which would raise my mash temp accordingly with time. There is no difference in time between our set ups. We both throw BTU's at our HLT to manage temps.

This is true. The major difference is that you are actually mashing your malt starches about 4°F lower than you think.

You set your HLT temp to your desired mash temp vie the HLT and wait for your mash temp to reach your set point.

Not quite. I set my HLT temp to [desired mash temp + ΔT]. So, if I want a mash temp of 150F, I set my HLT to 154F.

I agree your actual mash temp is a better way to gauge timing especially if we're going to ramp up through rests. You know when your mash is at a certain temp.

Precisely.

( but I bet you've cheated and started your next ramp once the top of the bed hit your desired temp, knowing your lag time and your wife was wanting you to do something else)

Haha, no, can't say I've done that! My wife knows I'm busy when I'm brewing, fortunately. In all seriousness, my ramp rate is quite fast, so I can rest for plenty of time before I need to increase the HLT temp for the next ramp.

My only challenge is you have a custom set up and a skill set that may be challenging to replicate. I'm sure you make great beer and I'd love to try some. I make beer that I'm proud to share as well. I think we need to make this accessible to ambitious Brewers as they move through the process. Your right for your system and I'm right for my system. One of the great things about this obsession is we get to build a system that's ours. Made with our own hands.

I'd be happy to share a pint of my beer with you any day. I'd also try anything made on your setup. I've won awards for my beer, but most importantly, as you state, I'm proud of it! And, as I've said before, even if you're using a process with a minor quantitative flaw, by all means stick to it if it works for you. I'm not arguing that your process won't make beer, or that it doesn't work. From an optimization perspective, I wouldn't be happy using your process, but that's me.

You should write up an article on how you built your system for the site.

Cheers!

Let's make it easy for the new guys!

I'm not sure I want to write an article explaining this. It would be like writing a letter to a bunch of kids telling them that there's no Santa Clause. Can you imagine the backlash from people getting their worlds rocked by information that challenges convention? Just look at this thread!

Anyway, I like your attitude. Cheers mate!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

So it's clear, you are actually measuring the wort coming out of the HEX as equal to the HLT temp?

With slow steady wort flow through 25 ft. of 1/2" copper tubing submersed in 15 gallons of water in the HLT, yes, indeed the HLT temp is equal to HEX output temp at the end of the copper coil. Attaching a fitting and thermometer to the output will contribute further heat loss, so when measured by an RTD probe in a stainless Tee fitting, you will read maybe half a degree low by my guess. Not measuring it, and not adding more heat sinking material to the plumbing is better, and you can assume the HEX output is essentially equal to HLT temp. Like they say in physics, you change the outcome by measuring it!

Then the top and bottom of the mash are at your desired temp as well as the wort coming out of the tun?

The temperature of the mash should be slightly different than that measured in an output fitting outside of the tun. I wouldn't concern yourself with the temperature of the wort leaving the tun anyway.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Could you guys quit posting in this thread I don't want to turn off hbt notifications but this has gotten out of hand.from this point just state your herms output temp or go start another thread thanks

OK, if you're not interested in the discussion, and merely want a number to use for your HEX output, here's my advice. If you want a mash temp of about 150F, use a HEX output temp of about 154F.

 

[orangehero]

I'm interested specifically in what you're seeing in your system. So you're saying when you stick a thermometer in the output stream of an RTD in a tee fitting you're observing a 0.5°F difference?

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I'm interested specifically in what you're seeing in your system. So you're saying when you stick a thermometer in the output stream of an RTD in a tee fitting you're observing a 0.5°F difference?

I don't measure HEX output; there's no reason to. Since it's coming from a heat exchanger plenty long enough to reach max efficiency, it's essentially equal to HLT temp.

Now, if you were running your wort extremely fast, or in a very large diameter tube, or through a very short tube length, etc., HEX output could be lower than HLT temp by a noticeable amount, and you'd want to compensate for that.

 

[Dcpcooks]

" This is true. The major difference is that you are actually mashing your malt starches about 4°F lower than you think"

No my HLT heat source is controlled by my wort probe on the exit side of the hex. So my HLT is hotter than the wort temp by 3.5degrees F. I just don't care what the HLT temp is only the wort temp.

Then I flip my valve and run the HLT back through the hex to monitor the sparge temp and begin the cleaning process!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

No my HLT heat source is controlled by my wort probe on the exit side of the hex. So my HLT is hotter than the wort temp by 3.5degrees F. I just don't care what the HLT temp is only the wort temp.

Look, you are controlling your wort as it exits your HEX, which is where your HLT PID probe sits. You consider that to be your mash temp. I'm telling you with 100% certainty that does not reflect the temperature of your mash. Your mash temp is about 4F lower than that of the wort as it leaves the HEX. I promise you that this is true. If you don't understand anything I've been saying in this thread, at least trust me when I say that your mash is ~4F lower than the wort leaving the HEX! If you're fine with that, then that's OK. Keep doing it! If you want better and more accurate control of your mash temp, hit me up and I'll be glad to help you.

Then I flip my valve and run the HLT back through the hex to monitor the sparge temp and begin the cleaning process!

Sounds good to me!

 

[Dcpcooks]

I'll pull temps on the next mash and check. Thanks for the heads up[emoji106]

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I'll pull temps on the next mash and check. Thanks for the heads up[emoji106]

Sounds good. Looking forward to hearing what your delta ends up as. Make sure to use a calibrated thermometer when checking temps; factory thermometers can be off by several degrees, as well as RTDs.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Sounds good. Looking forward to hearing what your delta ends up as. Make sure to use a calibrated thermometer when checking temps; factory thermometers can be off by several degrees, as well as RTDs.

After three batches it's an average of -1.2 delta. Thanks for the heads up. I had to buy a small tablet to plug my controller into. That allows me to plug in the numbers and override my stock set up with the delta.

Cheers and enjoy the long weekend!

Don

 

[Tiber_Brew]

After three batches it's an average of -1.2 delta. Thanks for the heads up. I had to buy a small tablet to plug my controller into. That allows me to plug in the numbers and override my stock set up with the delta.

Cheers and enjoy the long weekend!

Don

You're saying there's only 1.2F loss between your hot liquor temp (i.e. HERMS temp) and your mash temp, as measured in the mash itself?