help x2

[MazdaMatt]

1. Mexican cerveza kit has stopped at 1.009, should ferm down to 1.006. I used a bit too much water and had to add dextrose to get up to the correct OG, so I'm thinking I would have an even smaller proportion of unfermentables so I should EASILY hit 1.006. Now, i've read all the "stuck fermentation" advice and the first thing to do is raise my temp to the top of the acceptable range for the yeast... here's where things get weird. The kit comes with an ale/lager yeast blend. Soooo... should i just leave it alone assuming it is plenty warm for the lager yeast, or should i bump it up about 3-4 degrees to the ale yeast's upper range? History - I took the 1.009 reading 10 days after a reading of 1.010. I'll take another reading tonight to see if it is unchanged still (5 days since 1.009). So... heat, patience or pitching?

2. Did my first AG brew a couple weeks ago (choc oatmeal stout) and i'm pretty concerned with it. I fooked up the mash and only did 30-35 minutes of mashing (163*F water knocked down to 155*F when I added the grains, stayed pretty much steady for 30-35min). I'm sure I should have done this for longer. The recipe called for 1.070 OG and I got 1.052. Does this indicate poor starch conversion? If so, should I take action by adding some enzyme? If so, which one? What are the ups and down of enzyme vs no-enzyme-poor-conversion?

 

[Shaneoco1981]

1. Mexican cerveza kit has stopped at 1.009, should ferm down to 1.006. I used a bit too much water and had to add dextrose to get up to the correct OG, so I'm thinking I would have an even smaller proportion of unfermentables so I should EASILY hit 1.006. Now, i've read all the "stuck fermentation" advice and the first thing to do is raise my temp to the top of the acceptable range for the yeast... here's where things get weird. The kit comes with an ale/lager yeast blend. Soooo... should i just leave it alone assuming it is plenty warm for the lager yeast, or should i bump it up about 3-4 degrees to the ale yeast's upper range? History - I took the 1.009 reading 10 days after a reading of 1.010. I'll take another reading tonight to see if it is unchanged still (5 days since 1.009). So... heat, patience or pitching?

2. Did my first AG brew a couple weeks ago (choc oatmeal stout) and i'm pretty concerned with it. I fooked up the mash and only did 30-35 minutes of mashing (163*F water knocked down to 155*F when I added the grains, stayed pretty much steady for 30-35min). I'm sure I should have done this for longer. The recipe called for 1.070 OG and I got 1.052. Does this indicate poor starch conversion? If so, should I take action by adding some enzyme? If so, which one? What are the ups and down of enzyme vs no-enzyme-poor-conversion?

1. You are not that far off. The 1.006 is just an estimate, and I am bet dollars to donuts, you have reached your final gravity. Bottle and call it a day.

2. If you got that low of a Original gravity (is this pre-boil or post-boil?) indicates poor efficiency. Whether it be poor starch conversion or poor sparging, one of the two. I never do a mash of less then an hour, and most of the time, I go for a 90 min mash, just to be on the safe side, with a 45 min to 1 hour long fly sparge. As far as what can u do now? The answer is not much. At this point, there is no way to get the gravity where it should have been. Let it ferment out and hope it ends up drinkable. Sorry.

 

[Yooper]

The given FG is just an estimate. If you're at 1.009, and it hasn't moved in three days or more, it's done. I wouldn't be concerned even a tiny bit over .003, which is almost nothing. If it's at 1.009 three days from now, it's still done.

The low OG on the AG batch could be incomplete starch conversion or it could be a bad crush or inadequate sparge. It's hard to say without knowing the details- how much mash water, how many pounds of grain, the sparging technique, total volume, etc. If you want to provide the recipe and details, we can take a look and see if we can nail down the problem.

 

[malweth]

Unless you've got a very sensitive hydrometer and perfectly consistent samples, 1.009 = 1.010. It's possible there was a little more fermentation in those 10 days and change of 0.001, your fermentation is done.

Clearing for 10+ days can't be bad, though!

 

[PT Ray]

From my experience with Coopers and their ale/lager blended yeast, you would have to have used just the Cerveza kit and sugar in 23 liters to hit 1.006. If the batch was any smaller and/or used any additional malt extract or dextrin you should expect a higher terminal gravity.

If you only mashed for 30 minutes I would certainly expect a decrease in efficiency. Even at an hour my numbers tend to vary.

 

[MazdaMatt]

Thanks for the hand-holding on the cerveza. I'm going to bottle it saturday, so it will be plenty fermented out. Would I be ill-advised to let it sit a few degrees warmer till then? A few degrees warmer would put it at 70 - as recommended by the kit.

So the Amylase/beano treatment is worthless?

1.052 was post-boil. I DEFINITELY didn't mash long enough and I definitely sparged stupidly. So the question is, could I lose 20 points from poor sparge or is my loss of points from a mix of poor sparge and poor conversion?

If it were from poor sparge and poor conversion, would enzymes help me out a little by converting a few more starches for my little critters to nom up?

The potential saving grace is that the recipe was for a 7% stout, so if I end up with only 4% I won't cry - unless it tastes like crap.

 

[MazdaMatt]

From my experience with Coopers and their ale/lager blended yeast, you would have to have used just the Cerveza kit and sugar in 23 liters to hit 1.006. If the batch was any smaller and/or used any additional malt extract or dextrin you should expect a higher terminal gravity.

If you only mashed for 30 minutes I would certainly expect a decrease in efficiency. Even at an hour my numbers tend to vary.

Ooooh, so since I followed the Aztec Gold recipe and then added a bit of sugar to get the expected OG due to too much water, I may end up with higher than 1.006 due to the malt extract?

 

[MazdaMatt]

Hold up... the recipe was listed as a "no sparge" recipe, so perhaps my crappy sparge technique was not a problem.


recipe:
http://www.tastybrew.com/newrcp/detail/737

I mashed in 1.5qt/lb of grain, sparged poorly with enough water to get me to 15L (3.96gal), then boiled down to 3gal.

 

[PT Ray]

Would I be ill-advised to let it sit a few degrees warmer till then? A few degrees warmer would put it at 70 - as recommended by the kit.

Not at all but don't be surprised if things don't change. I've brewed a lot of Coopers over the past year with that yeast from 50-70F. It still kept the same level of attenuation. I could calculate the final gravity within a point.

 

[PT Ray]

Ooooh, so since I followed the Aztec Gold recipe and then added a bit of sugar to get the expected OG due to too much water, I may end up with higher than 1.006 due to the malt extract?

Are you talking about the recipe on the Coopers forum? That calls for the Cerveza kit and 500grams of light DME for 23 liters with a calculated finishing gravity of 1.008. How exactly did you make yours?

 

[MazdaMatt]

Oh my god... I thought it was supposed to finish at 1.006.

I did that same recipe, but I accidentally "added 23L of water" instead of "add water to 23L". Of course the can is 2L and the light DME is probably 700ml displacement, so I ended up with too much water. I then decided it would be wise to add dextrose till I hit my OG target.

Okay, Cerveza Emergency evaded. False alarm. Have a beer.

I'm still curious about the poor conversion in my oatmeal choc stout and the risk of leaving it alone vs the risk of adding an enzyme to convert more starch in the fermenter.

 

[erikpete18]

For your stout, its gonna be tough to tell what you've got going on until the yeast has a chance to work on it. Its possible that you were able to get (mostly) full conversion, you just got a poor efficiency from either your crush/sparge/something else. In that case, the yeast will still ferment out to around 75% attenuation (around 1.012-1.016, depending on the grain bill).

Its also possible that you've got a lot of unfermentable starches/sugars floating around in solution that the yeast can't use, in which case some amylase might help. However, I wouldn't worry about doing anything until the yeast have had a chance to go to town on what's around right now.

One last thought, was your 1.052 OG what you measured from the fermenter, or did you calculate that based upon a pre-boil measurement? If you topped up the fermenter with water (which it sounds like you did) it can be tough to get everything completely mixed and therefore tough to get an accurate reading. If that might be the case, unless you took a reading before topping off, it might be tough to actually figure out what your OG was, and in that case RDWHAHB!

 

[MazdaMatt]

Thanks for the input. 1.052OG was post-boil with exactly the volume that ended up in the fermenter.

I'll see what i get fermented down to and then read more on Amylase and beano. I've read about beano and it looks like it is a pretty hardcore converter that leaves you with no non-alcohol carbohydrates... don't know if i want that. Perhaps the amylase can be more throttled back? I have on idea... I'm waiting to see what happens after 3 weeks in the carboy... relaxing, but I don't have any HB yet!

 

[erikpete18]

Ah, so sounds like your OG is good. I've not tried either beano or amylase, but have heard the same things you've read. I suppose using the beano and knocking the FG way down wouldn't be awful in a cerveza, but I'd look into using the amylase first. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!

(Also, get down to the liquor store and pick up a nice 6-pack).

 

[MazdaMatt]

The cerveza won't be getting any enzymes, it is the stout that I worry was not properly converted.

I picked up an Innis & Gun barrel aged scottish beer... bloody delicious. I also grabbed a big bottle of Muskoka Summer Weisse.

 

[Shaneoco1981]

Oh my god... I thought it was supposed to finish at 1.006.

I did that same recipe, but I accidentally "added 23L of water" instead of "add water to 23L". Of course the can is 2L and the light DME is probably 700ml displacement, so I ended up with too much water. I then decided it would be wise to add dextrose till I hit my OG target.

Okay, Cerveza Emergency evaded. False alarm. Have a beer.

I'm still curious about the poor conversion in my oatmeal choc stout and the risk of leaving it alone vs the risk of adding an enzyme to convert more starch in the fermenter.

At this point, no, there is not much you can do. Sorry.

 

[Vuarra]

The cerveza won't be getting any enzymes, it is the stout that I worry was not properly converted.

I picked up an Innis & Gun barrel aged scottish beer... bloody delicious. I also grabbed a big bottle of Muskoka Summer Weisse.

Funny, as I had done a few batches of Cooper's Cervesa, and they always include an enzyme for drying the batch (I have a few extra packages).

I agree with your interpretation of Innis & Gunn... you can do a search here for a recipe for a clone thereof. Not going to touch the Weisse beer since I may have some issues with the glutens.

Depending on the stout, they may be sweet or dry... try it before you condemn it.

 

[MazdaMatt]

It CAME with enzymes to dry out? I'm surprised. Mine came only with a can of extract and a pack of yeast. I'm not going to enzyme it, just bottle it tomorrow and drink it in three weeks.

Patience and analysis will determine the stout's fate. I'll check FG at 2.5 weeks for three days, then if it is done WAY too high I'll maybe do an iodine test and enzyme it only if it shows starches as a last resort. If it is a bit high and not starchy then I'll bottle it and hopefully it will be a decent low-acohol sweetish chocolate stout. If it ferments well, then I'll be optimistic