Help with Water Profile

[mabrungard]

Interesting. Just remember that it takes time for the CO2 that you injected into the water to hydrate. You can get CO2 instantly into water via high pressure (ie: Sodastream), but that hydration of CO2 is a chemical process that can't really be hurried. If its been less than 2 weeks under pressure, you may find that the water character changes slightly as that CO2 hydrates into the solution. I have no idea if that will change anything, but this is just a note for consideration.

 

[LBussy]

Thanks Martin. I need to come up with a better carbonation method than "set it and forget it." It would probably work better if I had longer to let them sit and carbonate/mellow. I've been thinking about rigging up a "carbonation keg" with a diffuser stone. Even at such high pressures (30 PSI), carbonated water takes a while since the pressure/target volume relationship is like carbonating ale at 2-5 PSI.

 

[LBussy]

We're well into the keg now. Having gone side by side with Pellegrino I'd say this is spot-on. We've also had time to notice that after all that work it's apparently not what she wanted.

San Pellegrino is a sparkling water more than seltzer so the end result is less fizzy. When you pour you can see much larger bubbles in the head. It ends up "more ale than lager" in the carbonation department. Now I really like it but the wife wants her "club soda" back. So, it's back to 12.5 grams of baking soda in the RO water. Works good, she likes it, heck of a lot easier.

I'll keep this keg aside for ME.

 

[Yooper]

We're well into the keg now. Having gone side by side with Pellegrino I'd say this is spot-on. We've also had time to notice that after all that work it's apparently not what she wanted.

San Pellegrino is a sparkling water more than seltzer so the end result is less fizzy. When you pour you can see much larger bubbles in the head. It ends up "more ale than lager" in the carbonation department. Now I really like it but the wife wants her "club soda" back. So, it's back to 12.5 grams of baking soda in the RO water. Works good, she likes it, heck of a lot easier.

I'll keep this keg aside for ME.

Lee, I think I missed this earlier, but for her club soda, you use the baking soda and RO water (that makes it easier for me so I'm glad it's that simple!), but what is the temperature/psi (ie c02 volume) you find is the most club soda-ish? I think my last attempt was overcarbed as it seemed more acidic than I wanted.

 

[LBussy]

Lee, I think I missed this earlier, but for her club soda, you use the baking soda and RO water (that makes it easier for me so I'm glad it's that simple!), but what is the temperature/psi (ie c02 volume) you find is the most club soda-ish? I think my last attempt was overcarbed as it seemed more acidic than I wanted.

12.9g Baking Soda per 5 gallons (the scientists will hopefully pardon me for the mixed measuring systems), 36° F, 30 PSI. That's 4.6 volumes if my chart is right. Someone told me seltzer is supposed to be 4 volumes so this may be on the high side but SWMBO likes it, and the Perlick 650SS taps make short work of dispensing it.

Just sitting there under pressure takes about 2 weeks, but I'm sure some shaking and such could convince it to carb quicker. That's why I was looking at one of those carbing caps for a corny keg.

 

[Yooper]

12.9g Baking Soda per 5 gallons (the scientists will hopefully pardon me for the mixed measuring systems), 36° F, 30 PSI. That's 4.6 volumes if my chart is right. Someone told me seltzer is supposed to be 4 volumes so this may be on the high side but SWMBO likes it, and the Perlick 650SS taps make short work of dispensing it.

Just sitting there under pressure takes about 2 weeks, but I'm sure some shaking and such could convince it to carb quicker. That's why I was looking at one of those carbing caps for a corny keg.

Thanks! I got into club soda and lime this winter in Texas, when it was so nice (hot and dry) and want to make my own for home, so this is a great place to start!

 

[ajdelange]

12.9g Baking Soda per 5 gallons (the scientists will hopefully pardon me for the mixed measuring systems), 36° F, 30 PSI. That's 4.6 volumes if my chart is right.

I get 4.83 Vols. so your chart and my math aren't too far apart. I also estimate pH at 5.07 and the sodium content at 182 mg/L.

Were you to use half the bicarbonate you'd have, of course, half the sodium but the pH would drop to 4.72. That's about the same as lager beer but I gather that such a low pH would be considered objectionable in a fizzy water?

 

[LBussy]

I get 4.83 Vols. so your chart and my math aren't too far apart. I also estimate pH at 5.07 and the sodium content at 182 mg/L.

Were you to use half the bicarbonate you'd have, of course, half the sodium but the pH would drop to 4.72. That's about the same as lager beer but I gather that such a low pH would be considered objectionable in a fizzy water?

Well here's the fuzzy math I used. Wife likes a no-name club soda we buy at the local grocery store. It shows 95 mg of sodium per 12 oz (354.882ml) serving. That works out to 0.2677 mg/ml [(95 / 354.882)] of sodium.

NaHCO3 has a molar mass 84.0066 g/mol. Sodium is 22.9898 g/mol or 27.3667% of the mol [(22.9898 / 84.0066) * 100]. That works out to: 3.6541 g of NaHCO3 to net 1 g of sodium [(1 / 22.9898%) * 100], or 1 gram of NaHCO3 contributes 0.2737 g sodium [(1 * 27.3667%) / 100]

To get the desired 0.2677 mg/ml of sodium in solution one needs 0.9782 mg/ml [(0.2677 mg/ml / 27.3667%) * 100] NaHCO3

There are 3785.41 ml in a gallon (3.8 liters). To get the desired 0.2677 mg/ml concentration of sodium in a gallon, one needs 2575.971505 mg [0.6805 * 3785.41] NaHCO3 per gallon (12.9g/5 gallons).

It is entirely possibly my math is wrong too - if so I still ended up with something the wife likes.

So ... my thinking was the sodium level went to the taste and the bicarb allowed it to "hold" the carbonation. That was all till I learned a little more about the water chemistry.

 

[ajdelange]

Well here's the fuzzy math I used. Wife likes a no-name club soda we buy at the local grocery store. It shows 95 mg of sodium per 12 oz (354.882ml) serving. That works out to 0.2677 mg/ml [(95 / 354.882)] of sodium.

(95/12)[mg/oz]*128[oz/gal]*(1/3.78541)[gal/L] = 267.694 mg/L so that checks

NaHCO3 has a molar mass 84.0066 g/mol. Sodium is 22.9898 g/mol or 27.3667% of the mol [(22.9898 / 84.0066) * 100]. That works out to: 3.6541 g of NaHCO3 to net 1 g of sodium [(1 / 22.9898%) * 100], or 1 gram of NaHCO3 contributes 0.2737 g sodium [(1 * 27.3667%) / 100]



To get the desired 0.2677 mg/ml of sodium in solution one needs 0.9782 mg/ml [(0.2677 mg/ml / 27.3667%) * 100] NaHCO3

267.694[mg Na/L]*(1/22.99)[mmol Na/mg]*84.006[mg/mmol NaHCO3] = 978.16 mg/L NaHCO3 so that checks.

There are 3785.41 ml in a gallon (3.8 liters). To get the desired 0.2677 mg/ml concentration of sodium in a gallon, one needs 2575.971505 mg [0.6805 * 3785.41] NaHCO3 per gallon (12.9g/5 gallons).

The problem seems to be in here.
978.16[mg/L NaHCO3]*3.78541[L/gal] = 3702.74 mg/gal or for 5 gal 18513.7 mg (18.5137 g).

Or looked at slightly differently
(12900/5)[mg/gal]*(1/84.01)[mmol NaHCO3 /mg]*23[mg/mmol Na]*(12/128)[(oz/Serving)/(gal/oz) = (gal/Serving)] = 66.22 mg/Serving


The other thing to think about is that there may have been an additional source of sodium i.e. sodium chloride or sodium sulfate in the water before the CO2 was added.

So ... my thinking was the sodium level went to the taste and the bicarb allowed it to "hold" the carbonation. That was all till I learned a little more about the water chemistry.

That's not all that ridiculous an assumption if you want to add 'at a given pH' to the sentence. For a given level of pH you will need more bicarb to permit a higher level of dissolved CO2.

 

[LBussy]

The problem seems to be in here.
978.16[mg/L NaHCO3]*3.78541[L/gal] = 3702.74 mg/gal or for 5 gal 18513.7 mg (18.5137 g).

The other thing to think about is that there may have been an additional source of sodium i.e. sodium chloride or sodium sulfate in the water before the CO2 was added.

I always go sideways somewhere in a long calculation like that. So I ended up a little light on the sodium, interesting. I'll try the 3702.74 mg/gal rate in the next batch and see what she says.

Sure there could have been other sources of sodium. Without having any other information, I just took a wild-@$$ stab at it and she liked it.

 

[ajdelange]

I was wondering if the label gave any other ion content info. Perhaps it was just one of those Minimum Daily Adult Requirements labels.

I remember being cautioned by a colleague to avoid soda water: "Do you know how much salt they put in there?" At the time I didn't question assuming there was a lot of salt (NaCl) in there for the usual reasons but this little discourse has led me to rethink that. Perhaps the sodium is in there mainly from bicarbonate used to control the pH.

 

[LBussy]

That was it, it only listed sodium.