Help with stout water profile?

[rumham1985]

Hello! I sought some help a few weeks back and was directed to Bru'n Water for water help.. I think I've finally figured out enough to hopefully get by and was hoping for some feedback from some folks with a little more water experience. I should not that I am planning on using RO water and building the water profile to control for low mash ph

Here's my grain bill: 17 lbs 2 row 1 lb chocolate malt 1 lb roast barley .5 lb 120L crystal .5 lb black patent (500L) 1 lb flaked oats

After messing around with Bru'n Water, I landed my MASH water profile at:

Calcium 86 ppm

Magnesium 5 ppm

Sodium 26 ppm

Sulfate 36 ppm

Chloride 46 ppm

Bicarbonate 231 ppm

This is giving me an estimated mash pH of 5.38 and I'm getting to this mash water (7 gallons total) profile by: .7 grams gypsum

1.8 grams calcium chloride

1.4 grams epsom salt

1.8 grams baking soda

1.8 grams chalk

1.4 grams pickling lime

Does this seem at all reasonable or are there any red flags that jump out??? FWIW I'm adjusting 4.25 gallons of RO sparge water with .5 grams gypsum, 1 gram calcium chloride, and 1 gram epsom salt, no bicarbonates.

 

[xpops]

looks like you've got it figured out! only thing i was going to reassure was no chalk/baking soda in your sparge but you've got that nailed down in the last sentence.

 

[mabrungard]

Remove chalk from the water. It won't dissolve in a timely manner. Rely on the baking soda and lime to supply enough alkalinity to keep the pH above 5.4. You don't need the calcium or bicarb content to be high. Focus on the predicted pH.

 

[rumham1985]

Making those adjustments brings my mash baking soda addition to 5 grams and sodium at 54 ppm. Is this still reasonable or should I be concerned about it "tasting like alka seltzer?" Many thanks!!!!!

 

[mabrungard]

Nope! 54 ppm sodium would not produce any semblance of salty or alka seltzer flavor in beer. The sodium content would need to be at around 250 ppm to be salty.

If you are using the free version of Bru'n Water, that reported sodium content is in the mash only. If you are sparging the batch, then the sodium concentration in the kettle will be lower. The supporter's version does that calculation for you.

 

[Aristoi]

I am doing a Stout this weekend building profile in Brunwater from RO and having a hard time getting Mash ph up to around 5.5. I batch sparge, and am at the point where i have to do a full volume mash to get ph high enough and no sparge. Or i sparge and then boil down. I see that chalk has fallen out of favor in many different posts so i am willing to change things up and learn something new. I have never used pickling lime before but can i add this directly to the mash like chalk?

Another option i just realized that Martin just pointed out is i up my baking soda in mash to hit ph and with low to no sodium in sparge the sodium will dilute down in final wort. Not sure if high sodium in mash is detrimental.

Dont mean to thread jack, but OP seems to have met his goal and adding my question here since similar topic specific to stout.

 

[mabrungard]

Another option i just realized that Martin just pointed out is i up my baking soda in mash to hit ph and with low to no sodium in sparge the sodium will dilute down in final wort. Not sure if high sodium in mash is detrimental.

The application of the dilution for the sodium content is an important factor, but you mistakenly refer to the sodium content in the mash as 'high'. My experience with typical baking soda additions for darker grists indicates that the sodium concentrations are not detrimental. There are many water supplies with higher sodium concentration. It does not appear that the modest sodium concentrations from the typical baking soda additions, is not detrimental.

 

[Aristoi]

Thanks for pushing for clarification, i meant "high" being above my target profile with sodium being ~35ppm. When i looked at it separately as you pointed out (mash vs final diluted) i was able to keep it <100ppm for mash and very close to my target diluted. I skipped the chalk addition and went with all baking soda to get ph up as i was not comfortable using pickling lime for first time, and did not know if i could add directly to mash. I ended up coming to the same conclusion that my "high" (well above my target) sodium was a non issue with hitting final diluted target profile.

Great spreadsheet, it was my first time using it with building from RO. I targeted 5.5 and ended up at 5.47 actual. I am thrilled i am within 0.1 of predicted and difference is likely from grain, my actual RO profile, or my limited accuracy in weighing salt additions. I new 50g scale with 0.001g resolution is on order, and i plan to send out my RO water out for analysis as TDS has not fallen below 60 output from 400 input on a new system.

 

[mabrungard]

I new 50g scale with 0.001g resolution is on order, and i plan to send out my RO water out for analysis as TDS has not fallen below 60 output from 400 input on a new system.

I find that measuring to a tenth of a gram is sufficient for homebrewing use. No need to get too precise. Be sure that your scale is robust and durable and that you have some form of calibration mass.

If your raw water has high sodium or chloride (brackish water), then its possible that your 60 ppm TDS is as good as it can get. The test on the RO water is appropriate.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Don't want to hijack, but I'm having a similar issue. I want to brew a big RIS. I entered the grain bill and started working the numbers from RO (like I do for my IPA's).

I selected "Black Full" for the desired water profile. I cannot find a water additions configuration that doesn't either violate the profile or leave the pH too low (I was shooting for at least 5.4, would like 5.5).

The grain bill looks like:
17 lb American - Pale 2-Row
1.5 lb American - Roasted Barley
1 lb Belgian - Special B
0.75 lb Finland - Chocolate Malt
0.5 lb American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt)
1.5 lb Flaked Oats

Bru'n Water has been spot on for my IPA's and I'm sure it's fine here, I just think I have the wrong desired profile?

I'd love any suggestions on what to shoot for.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Hello! I sought some help a few weeks back and was directed to Bru'n Water for water help.. I think I've finally figured out enough to hopefully get by and was hoping for some feedback from some folks with a little more water experience. I should not that I am planning on using RO water and building the water profile to control for low mash ph

Here's my grain bill: 17 lbs 2 row 1 lb chocolate malt 1 lb roast barley .5 lb 120L crystal .5 lb black patent (500L) 1 lb flaked oats

After messing around with Bru'n Water, I landed my MASH water profile at:

Calcium 86 ppm

Magnesium 5 ppm

Sodium 26 ppm

Sulfate 36 ppm

Chloride 46 ppm

Bicarbonate 231 ppm

This is giving me an estimated mash pH of 5.38 and I'm getting to this mash water (7 gallons total) profile by: .7 grams gypsum

1.8 grams calcium chloride

1.4 grams epsom salt

1.8 grams baking soda

1.8 grams chalk

1.4 grams pickling lime

Does this seem at all reasonable or are there any red flags that jump out??? FWIW I'm adjusting 4.25 gallons of RO sparge water with .5 grams gypsum, 1 gram calcium chloride, and 1 gram epsom salt, no bicarbonates.

Very interesting. I have quite soft water so adjusting for darker beers was always a little problematic. I had fantastic results with my last smoked porter though. Here was my water lifted directly from the rather wonderful Bru'n'water.

Bru'n Water v.3.4 Water Adjustments
Name or ID

Profiles (ppm) Exist Mash Finished
Ca 10 93 68
Mg 1 1 1
Na 5 32 15
SO4 13 46 46
Cl 9 60 60
HCO3 37 232 NA
SO4/Cl Ratio 0.8

Batch Volume 38.00 Liters
Total Mash 14.00 Liters
Mash Dilution 0.00 Liters
Total Sparge 24.00 Liters
Sparge Dilution 0.00 Liters

Mineral Additions (gm) Mash Sparge
Gypsum . 0.8 1.4
Calcium Chloride 1.1 1.9
Epsom Salt 0.0 0.0
Mag Chloride 0.0 0.0
Canning Salt 0.0 0.0
Baking Soda 1.4 Not Recommended
Chalk . 1.4 Not Recommended
Pickling Lime 0.0 Not Recommended

Mash Acid Additions
0.00 (ml)
0.00 (ml)
Sparge Acid Addtions
Lactic 88.00 % 0.90 (ml)
0.00 (ml)

As you can see its quite similar to your own with sodium in the mash being at 32ppm. I emailed Martin and he suggested hardening the water with Bicarbonate of Soda. Worked a treat. Beer was super tasty.