help with limited water report

[tjmac5071]

I asked the town for a water report and received minimal info. I carbon filter slow to ensure I remove all of the chlorine - but the last three or four beers I brewed there like I extracted some tannins, something just does not seem right, beers are fine but feel flat with a taste that stays on the back of the tongue. One of the beers should have a huge hop taste and smell but does not.

I did not mash or sparge too high (I was using different water before with none of the same issues).

Here is my water report:
North Reading’s pH is between 8.3 and 8.7, sodium is in the range of 25 to 75 mg/L and sulfates are 20 mg/L

I brewed an IPA, Stout, Black IPA, all with the same issue. I brewed the IPA twice before with different water and no issue.

Can anyone give me some guidance on how I should adjust my water? I am planning a 10 gallon batch of a simple pale ale this weekend and want to make sure I fix this before then. I will have around 8.5gal of mash and I think 9 of sparge but I am still working out the recipe exactly.

Any help is much appreciated.

 

[tjmac5071]

do these additions make sense to treat all of the water at once:

Gypsum 15g
Epsom 5g
calcium chloride 8g
Citric Acid 5g

Or should I treat the mash and sparge water different?

 

[helibrewer]

That's not enough info to recommend anything. I would just go get 10 gallons of RO water, from a store machine if you don't have another source. That's about a $3.50 investment to make sure the beer turns out right.

Then send a water sample to Ward Labs and get a good report from them.

 

[ajdelange]

do these additions make sense to treat all of the water at once:

Gypsum 15g
Epsom 5g
calcium chloride 8g
Citric Acid 5g

No, but I am curious as to where these numbers came from. I haven't seen anything like those numbers in any source published in the last 50 years.

 

[McKnuckle]

Your water has a high pH. Distilled is theoretically neutral at 7. Your 8.x pH is too alkaline to be ideal for mashing, and hints at high bicarbonate (see below).

The sodium is on the high end of normal, probably okay. Sulfate is low for anything hoppy or dark but fine for lighter beers, although it's important to know the chloride level - sulfate and chloride interact with each other for bitter/malt balance. And there's no info about calcium, which is an important ion for brewing. And no overall hardness or bicarbonate info (high bicarb can be a cause of harsh flavors).

I'd go the Ward Labs route and get a brewing water report.

 

[ajdelange]

Your water has a high pH. Distilled is theoretically neutral at 7. Your 8.x pH is too alkaline to be ideal for mashing, and hints at high bicarbonate (see below).

No, not at all. For example rain water which has been allowed to come into equilibrium with limestone and the air (like most surface water) will have a pH of 8.4 and alkalinity of of a little over 50. Hardly too alkaline to be ideal for mashing (unless you consider ideal for mashing to be 0 alkalinity)

...sulfate and chloride interact with each other for bitter/malt balance.

No they don't. Each has its separate effect.

(high bicarb can be a cause of harsh flavors).

Indirectly, perhaps. Bicarb is removed, for the most part, when proper mash pH is established. If one fails to establish proper mash pH by not neutralizing alkalinity (mostly caused by bicarbonate) then the beer will be far from optimum for a variety of reasons. Of course the same thing happens with 0 alkalinity water if high DI mash pH base malt is used without darker malts to neutralize that alkalinity.

I'd go the Ward Labs route and get a brewing water report.

In any case you won't know how to handle water/mash unless you know what's in the water so a Ward Labs report is definitely a must do.

You can actually set mash pH properly with respect to the water simply by acidifying the water to pH 5.4 before mashing. If you know how to interpret the numbers the amount of acid added will tell you the alkalinity. You should still have an analysis done, however.

 

[tjmac5071]

Thanks everyone looks like I will either switch to Boston water where I live but not where I brew which has a full report, Poland springs bottled or RO

 

[MrHadack]

Thanks everyone looks like I will either switch to Boston water where I live but not where I brew which has a full report, Poland springs bottled or RO

I'm next door to you in Reading, MA. I'm on MWRA water which is very good for brewing. I had no idea North Reading wasn't!

 

[tjmac5071]

I'm next door to you in Reading, MA. I'm on MWRA water which is very good for brewing. I had no idea North Reading wasn't!

I never expected there to be an issue - I used Poland springs no problem and Boston city, carbon filtered no problem and every time I used north reading tap carbon filtered I had the issue. Funny thing is the filtered North Reading water tastes better than the filtered Boston. I believe the shop n save in west peabody sells RO water so I think I will go that route.

 

[McKnuckle]

Well, I suppose I could hardly have expected my comments to pass cleanly by one of the "water guys."

"For example rain water which has been allowed to come into equilibrium with limestone and the air (like most surface water) will have a pH of 8.4 and alkalinity of of a little over 50. Hardly too alkaline to be ideal for mashing..."

I don't think anyone routinely brews with rain water. Are you objecting to my use of the term "alkalinity" to describe a pH higher than 7 as an isolated metric (i.e. independent of CaCO3/HCO3 content)? If so, then okay, understood.

"Sulfate and chloride interact with each other..."
"No they don't. Each has its separate effect."

You're taking me too literally. I'm simply saying that salt and pepper each contributes a key component to the overall flavor of the tomato sauce, and that their individual amounts matter, not that they literally mix together. This is a practical description of how brewers typically reference the two salts - the SO4/Cl ratio and whether the resulting product is "malty" or "bitter."

In any case, my personal experience was with high bicarbonate content in well water (200 something), 300+ ppm hardness, 141 ppm sodium, and a chloride to sulfate ratio of 10:1. All reasons why switching to distilled water and adding salts was a night and day quality difference for my beers.

 

[ajdelange]

I don't think anyone routinely brews with rain water.

No though many brew with surface water which has alkalinities that are, as a consequence of the same mechanism, around 50 (though water suppliers will sometimes increase alkalinity a bit to protect their mains).

Are you objecting to my use of the term "alkalinity" to describe a pH higher than 7 as an isolated metric (i.e. independent of CaCO3/HCO3 content)? If so, then okay, understood.

Yes, I suppose so. 'Alkalinity' means something very specific in brewing; in particular the amount of acid that must be added to a sample to bring its pH to a specified value. As such it is a reflection of the resistance of a water sample (or malt) to pH change. This is somewhat independent of the pH of the water or malt. I, of course, am aware that all school children are taught that anything with a pH of less than 7 is acidic and greater than 7 is alkaline. That's not the same thing as saying that < 7 implies high acidity or that > 7 implies high alkalinity though it's pretty clear how people could get confused when I say 'I don't care about your pH, tell me about your alkalinity' (which is something I say a lot.

This is a practical description of how brewers typically reference the two salts - the SO4/Cl ratio and whether the resulting product is "malty" or "bitter."

I don't think it's very practical because it isn't accurate. Beers are made to taste more malty by using more malt (and/or higher colored malts) and less hops and more bitter by using more (or higher alpha) hops and less malt. Adjusting the chloride to sulfate ratio won't have much effect on that.

In any case, my personal experience was with high bicarbonate content in well water (200 something), 300+ ppm hardness, 141 ppm sodium, and a chloride to sulfate ratio of 10:1. All reasons why switching to distilled water and adding salts was a night and day quality difference for my beers.

I can certainly see that!

 

[McKnuckle]

Beers are made to taste more malty by using more malt (and/or higher colored malts) and less hops and more bitter by using more (or higher alpha) hops and less malt. Adjusting the chloride to sulfate ratio won't have much effect on that.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this contradicts some of what I've read... not that what I read is always accurate! But can you elaborate? Obviously I'm not asking about the first part, where clearly one adds the primary ingredients of malt or hops to balance a beer in a particular direction. I'm talking about the chloride/sulfate ratio. Even the Brewer's Friend water calculator has a scale that estimates "malty" vs. "bitter" based on the ratio. You don't think it matters?

 

[Yooper]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this contradicts some of what I've read... not that what I read is always accurate! But can you elaborate? Obviously I'm not asking about the first part, where clearly one adds the primary ingredients of malt or hops to balance a beer in a particular direction. I'm talking about the chloride/sulfate ratio. Even the Brewer's Friend water calculator has a scale that estimates "malty" vs. "bitter" based on the ratio. You don't think it matters?

I think the whole chloride/sulfate ratio is seriously flawed, and many other brewers do too.

Here's why. Say you have water with 5 ppm chloride and 50 ppm sulfate. That's a 10:1 "ratio" towards sulfate- but it's still very little of either and would be nearly negligible in the finished beer.

But say you have 150 ppm and 300 ppm of those- that's only 2:1 for the ratio- but the beer would beer very minerally and possibly undrinkable.

So you can see the ratio itself is immaterial- it's the actual amounts used. Just like your salt and pepper analogy- you may want 1 teaspoon of salt, and 1/2 teaspoon of pepper. While that's a 2:1 ratio, you may not want a cup of salt and a 1/2 cup of pepper. Same ratio, but absolutely meaningless.

 

[McKnuckle]

Sure, I get that, and clearly the raw quantities are even more important than the ratio. To bolster your point, the calc in Brewer's Friend says "concentration too low for meaningful ratio" when the ppm are under a certain value. I'm not sure what the threshold is... but once you reach the threshold, it begins reporting Malty, Very Malty, Balanced, Bitter, etc.

I guess the question is whether, assuming the two ions are kept at levels in the accepted range, if the ratio does have an effect on those flavor components. There's so much science in brewing that sometimes we accept things at face value in order to feel a little bit more in control of the variables!

 

[Yooper]

I guess the question is whether, assuming the two ions are kept at levels in the accepted range, if the ratio does have an effect on those flavor components.....

Short answer, no. Not any more than the ratio of garlic and onions impacts your spaghetti sauce.

It's not about the ratio- it's about the amount. Think of sulfate and chloride as mild "seasonings" than can tweak the spaghetti sauce (wort) to make it go from very good to great. They aren't opposites, and don't cancel each other out. The "ratio" aspect makes one think so, from what I can see from what brewers on this forum post about this topic.

You can brew beer with 0 all across the board- and the beer may be very good. But a little judicious addition of salts may enhance it quite a bit, just like your seasonings do in your spaghetti sauce.

I'm a "less is more" kind of person, and like less sulfate in my IPAs than some brewers may. More is not better, oftentimes.

 

[McKnuckle]

Short answer, no. Not any more than the ratio of garlic and onions impacts your spaghetti sauce.

But it totally does. I'm from an area of the country rich with Italian Americans and their food. Maybe the analogy falls short at this point...

So why don't we brewers just put in an equal amount of Cl and SO4 every time - small amounts for light lagers and larger amounts for stouts - and consider it a general "mineral level" rather than obsessing over one being more or less than the other? I guess it's a rhetorical question. Has there been any good experimentation done on this topic?

 

[ajdelange]

I suggest that people do the experiments in the comfort of their own homes. Fortunately you can get a pretty good idea as to what sulfate and chloride do to beer by adding some to finished beer and tasting. So get a nice malty beer and taste it. Now add some sulfate (gypsum or sodium sulfate). Does it now taste less malty? Does it taste more bitter? Take a relatively less malty beer and add chloride. Does it taste maltier? Less bitter? I think you will have to draw your own conclusions.

It is often commented that a beer made with 1 ppm each sulfate and chloride isn't anything like a beer made with 300 of each (#13) so clearly there is more to it than just ratio. But, you will say, that's an extreme case. And so it is. It is up to you to do some trials to see if perhaps 50:50 is the same or similar to 300:300 or to 75:75. Based on this you will decide whether you think that the chloride sulfate question has 1 or two degrees of freedom to it.